Mi-8MTV2 News

They do have real life Hip pilots on their development team. Check out his videos from a few years ago. He makes sling loading look especially easy and some of the stuff he did I will never hope to replicate and I have about 400 hours flying the Mi-8 in DCS. I dont think these guys would allow any deviation from the real world flight model unless it was a game engine limitation:)

Also, I remember seeing some statements coming from some well regarded flight sim magazine some years ago (cant find it though), saying the DCS Mi-8 was the best AIRCRAFT simulation ever made, even compared to avaliable fixed wings.

Regarding the to-easy-to-encounter VRS. My theory is that it's simply a design decision to force the virtual pilots to fly it as it is supposed to, not pulling the brakes and slam it to the ground. Very tempting when in a hot zone getting hit by smal arms fire (the seemingly most deadly municion for the 8 at the moment), but not realistic. So I believe it's a choice between unrealistic piloting (that affects the mission success) or an unrealistically easy established VRS, the later which you should be able to easily avoid with correct piloting anyhow.

Can’t remember the last time I died from VRS in the Mi8.

Just a question of mindset and practice.

Anyone got a video of this deadly DCS:Mi-8 VRS?

Fox

here:

edit:

sorry, I understood real life VRS.

I think the DCS Mi-8 is very realistic btw

Anyone got a video of this deadly DCS:Mi-8 VRS?

 

Fox

Don't know about DCS; but this is how you should get out of it without altitude loss:

Every time this comes up it's been shown that the descent rate at which the DCS Mi-8 enters VRS matches the descent rate at which the actual Mi-8 enters VRS (People usually stop arguing once they realise the gauge is metric).

 

It's not that the FM enters VRS too easily, it's that without haptic feedback, it's too easy to exceed the correct flight envelope.

 

If you use a FFB joystick VRS isn't really an issue unless you're flying it unrealistically and really throwing the aircraft around - which it isn't made to do.

Great point! You really have to fly in VR to get any idea of what it is like to fly IRL helicopter! Your spatial awareness and visual references are too limited with a 2D monitor.

Great point! You really have to fly in VR to get any idea of what it is like to fly IRL helicopter! Your spatial awareness and visual references are too limited with a 2D monitor.

I just got VR over the holidays and the Mi8 is definitely easier to keep out of vrs when I’m 3D. On a flat screen it’s sometimes hard to tell if you’re climbing or descending when in a hover or braking hard, but not nearly as difficult in VR.

here:

 

 

edit:

sorry, I understood real life VRS.

I think the DCS Mi-8 is very realistic btw

Don't know about DCS; but this is how you should get out of it without altitude loss:

 

Thanks guys, but I know both these videos.

I want to see a demontration of what many consider VRS in the DCS:Mi-8. I want to point to a specific "problem", but first I want to see, what this Mi8 VRS is, that many talk about.

Fox

Thanks guys, but I know both these videos.

I want to see a demontration of what many consider VRS in the DCS:Mi-8. I want to point to a specific "problem", but first I want to see, what this Mi8 VRS is, that many talk about.

 

Fox

I think it is very subjective. I remember being frustrated when I started learning the Mi-8 and thinking "it cannot enter into VRS that easilty in real life". Caused me to crash a lot :)

But having seen real life videos and also considering the fact that the lead developer is an actual Mi-8 pilot, I think it is very realistic.

So maybe those people are just as frustrated as I was in the beginning and looking for the problem in the flight model and not within themselves :music_whistling:

One important thing to learn when you are new is that your loadout is a significant factor. When you have a very heavy loadout (like 6 rocket pods and infantry in the back) you have to be extremely careful when landing

I agree with ricktoberfest that it might also have to do with the fact that it is not that easy to 'feel' your descent rate when playing in 2D. Keeping an eye on the vertical velocitiy indicator pretty much solved the issue for me and playing in VR also makes easier to judge your descent rate intuitively.

I think it is very subjective. I remember being frustrated when I started learning the Mi-8 and thinking "it cannot enter into VRS that easilty in real life". Caused me to crash a lot :)

But having seen real life videos and also considering the fact that the lead developer is an actual Mi-8 pilot, I think it is very realistic.

 

It might help that he is a Mi-8 pilot, but then it gets problematic if you see problems with the FM. The expectations get higher.

So maybe those people are just as frustrated as I was in the beginning and looking for the problem in the flight model and not within themselves :music_whistling:

 

 

One important thing to learn when you are new is that your loadout is a significant factor. When you have a very heavy loadout (like 6 rocket pods and infantry in the back) you have to be extremely careful when landing

Thatˋs what I want to see. I want to see what they are complaining about.

Often enough people show that they donˋt now what they are doing and what they are talking about. Is that what they complain about even a VRS, or is it something else?

I agree with ricktoberfest that it might also have to do with the fact that it is not that easy to 'feel' your descent rate when playing in 2D. Keeping an eye on the vertical velocitiy indicator pretty much solved the issue for me and playing in VR also makes easier to judge your descent rate intuitively.

But if the "feeling" itself would prevent VRS, then VRS wouldn't happen IRL, as pilots sit inside the helicopter. Your solution for the problem is the right thing to do. Use the VSI! And look outside, to the side. VR helps for visual reference.

Fox

Well I agree. As I said. Practice makes perfect. And I never flew a Mi-8 pr any other helicopter IRL for that matters.

But I can buy the statement. If it was this senestive to VRS in rela life. a large quantity of students should be pankaced every year.

Point about feedback taken though.

It doesnt really bother me either way. I love the DCS Mi-8 and the Flight Model as it is.

True to real life or not.

How can people get Mi-8 so easily to VRS state? I have few times done that, but it was at start when I went typical way to find the limits by purposely. And with Mi-8 it is easy to avoid VRS by simply looking the vertical speed and forward speed when flying on screen. But in VR it becomes must a butt feeling and sound.

Like flying Mi-8 in full mist in zero visibility for couple hours teaches one to learn to read instruments as those are only things that tells you what is happening.

Must admit that it is years I have flown anything helicopter simulator without long extension and proper collective handling, but helicopters like UH-1H and Mi-8 will obey your thinking and not your inputs, and it makes those easy to fly.

So I think it is more about the peoples input devices than it is DCS itself.

It might help that he is a Mi-8 pilot, but then it gets problematic if you see problems with the FM. The expectations get higher.

 

 

 

 

 

Thatˋs what I want to see. I want to see what they are complaining about.

 

Often enough people show that they donˋt now what they are doing and what they are talking about. Is that what they complain about even a VRS, or is it something else?

 

 

 

 

 

But if the "feeling" itself would prevent VRS, then VRS wouldn't happen IRL, as pilots sit inside the helicopter. Your solution for the problem is the right thing to do. Use the VSI! And look outside, to the side. VR helps for visual reference.

 

 

 

Fox

To be clear I was talking about the ability to see when you were ascending or descending better in VR, not a seat of the pants type feeling. Of course the instruments are important, but you can’t stare at the vertical velocity indicator the entire time or you’ll end up in a tree

@Grodlund, actually even a pilot can be wrong.

@Grodlund, actually even a pilot can be wrong.

And they very often are. They do know things, remember lots of things wrong and then they don't know lots of things.

They are human, they are average Joe's with just profession to fly.....

And sure they get selected and selected, but in the end, they are humans.... With all same flaws....

but you can’t stare at the vertical velocity indicator the entire time or you’ll end up in a tree

Actually you are staring instruments almost all the time. That is why you have them ordered such grouping.

You keep checking attitude indicator in center. Then you perform glance checking to other instruments and back to attitude indicator.

1) attitude indicator

2) vertical velocity indicator

3) attitude indicator

4) speed indicator

5) attitude indicator

6) Heading indicator

7) attitude indicator

8) vertical velocity indicator

.........

And you repeat doing that through the flight.

In hovering the Hover and low speed indicator allows you stay in hover even in zero visibility, and you start to look four main instruments then, attitude, vertical speed, hover and low speed, heading. And then you check radar altitude depending your altitude.

You will have very nice peripheral vision to outside in Mi-8, better than any other helicopter because you have a window tiles as your mark to outside, unlike UH-1H or Gazelle, where you don't have a such visual grid to see easily how your attitude changes without focusing there.

:yay:

You're too serious, relax a little ...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmdlXnjJktdoKh8zLXMnzhA?view_as=subscriber

:):cheer3nc:

Think the VRS "problems" with the MI 8 do heavily depend on our sim hardware. A collective / throttle with finer (longer) range will simply give you better control over decending. This combined with some kind of buttkicker should give us every feedback we need. I have a very good Virpil throttle but still I'd like to have more range / throw. Especially in the Huey I find collective adjustments a real pita. IRL the collective has way more range, it is pretty heavy and thus gives the pilot perfect control.

We are mostly working in tiny increments which is why it feels twitchy to us ...

I sometimes think VRS is blamed even when it more a case of not enough power to slow decent, Just my thinking here and I may well be wrong. However the only times generally when I have issues is when VSI is well above 3mtr/sec to 5mtr/sec vertical descent no relative H movement, depending on load. Un-checked VSI increases very quickly to a point where you do not have enough power.

This also may or may not invoke VRS but generally you got there by descending to fast. And usually attempting to save yourself you have (and again a great point about leverage and fine control of collective input) you end up bleeding off rotor speed and associated loss of rotor efficiency (effectiveness) which of course cascades until the earth catches you . :cry:

As an observation I generally hear people coming in hard hit the ground and they then claim it was VRS but the sound of the rotors says completely different.

Question wouldn't the loading on the rotors be less in a VRS situation and increasing blade pitch only adds to increase the zone area of rotor affected by VRS?

As I understand it stepping sideways into undisturbed air is recommended to get out of VRS.

Think the VRS "problems" with the MI 8 do heavily depend on our sim hardware. A collective / throttle with finer (longer) range will simply give you better control over decending. This combined with some kind of buttkicker should give us every feedback we need. I have a very good Virpil throttle but still I'd like to have more range / throw. Especially in the Huey I find collective adjustments a real pita. IRL the collective has way more range, it is pretty heavy and thus gives the pilot perfect control.

 

We are mostly working in tiny increments which is why it feels twitchy to us ...

Imagine how "fine" control I have with the tiny throttle wheel of the Gladiator MkII (that is integrated in the base of the joy)....

Makes sense that a longer range would do wonders under collective and cyclic control. Maybe one day.... after some "few hundred" bucks :]

A real helicopter pilot who is flying DCS once told me that most crashes in DCS helicopter are a result of accelerated mass combined with not enough stopping / engine power. VRS in his eyes is just a thing under very defined circumstances. So yeah Fragbum, you might be right about that.

The difference between "settling with power" and VRS is in the aerodynamics.

During settling with power the engine/rotor is decelerating your descent by applying power. If you had more room downwards you would stop at some point.

In VRS the engine/rotor is accelerating your descent by applying power. If you had more room downwards you would accelerate more.

At some point where VRS is fully developed (whole rotordisc in downwash) you will lose the lateral and longitudinal control of the cyclic and cross-control/sidestep/vuichard recovery is not an option anymore.

At this point you can only lower the collective and hope you get out of this air column any random direction before you hit terra firma.

Of course people screw up their approach and blame it on the wrong suspect sometimes.

@AlphaOneSix

I for one appreciate your posts and do not consider them to be a waste of time.

@AlphaOneSix

Invariably not.