Strafe angle and riccochet in danger close tasking

Working on tac13 danger close tasking. On ingress the instructor is describing weapons and techniques for danger close situations. He mentions that LOW dive angle results in fewer riccochets and therefor less danger to nearby troops.

Watching tacview riccochet is indeed modelled and can damage troops.

I find this counter intuitive. A high dive angle should roccochet less. Cofnirmed this is true with handheld arms.

Can anyone think this is correct or is it obviously a typo.

I've seen rocket warheads skip quite a ways down range off A-10s at the Goldwater Range here in AZ. Off fairly steep dive angles too...

It's difficult to work around ricochet with just the dive angle, depends what your target is, hard/soft, flat/vertical, dispersion, you need to consider also that a non-permissive environment f.e will force you to fly low and appear on the target very late hence low angle.

So it's best to figure an attack heading first then combine with your angle solution. Since were talking about DC, attack heading is JTAC's decision, angle depends from the pilot once the JTAC gave him deconfliction.

@FlyingPhotog That's correct, rockets are the less accurate of them all. The DC radius on those things is often around 500m lol It's really tricky to use.

That's really interesting.

Just make sure (as in real life), that if you are going to do danger close guns and rockets, ingress from the direction of the friendly troops, so you can overfly them first, putting them behind you when engaging your target

Just make sure (as in real life), that if you are going to do danger close guns and rockets, ingress from the direction of the friendly troops, so you can overfly them first, putting them behind you when engaging your target

Oh good point. Ive been straffing accros them because i feel more accurate laterally but ricochet should be a higher priority!

Just make sure (as in real life), that if you are going to do danger close guns and rockets, ingress from the direction of the friendly troops, so you can overfly them first, putting them behind you when engaging your target

I´m a former army captain, I´ve not had the role of JTAC, but from what I can tell the US regulations states differently. See last sentence.

"(b) Danger Close. Ordnance delivery inside the 0.1 percent Pi distance will be

considered “danger close.” The supported commander must accept responsibility for the risk

to friendly forces when targets are inside the 0.1 percent Pi distance. Risk acceptance is

confirmed when the supported commander passes their initials to the attacking CAS aircraft

through the JTAC/FAC(A), signifying that they accept the risk inherent in ordnance delivery

inside the 0.1 percent Pi distance. When ordnance is a factor in the safety of friendly troops,

the aircraft weapon’s axis of attack should be parallel to the friendly force’s axis or

orientation, to reduce the risk of munitions impacting long or short of the intended impact

point onto friendly positions"

Source: Joint publication 3-09.3 Close Air Support, 25 nov 2014

Usual caveats apply, the publication could be old and outdated, but from my, albeit groundlevel experience, firing over own troops would be a whole lot more dangerous than firing to the side of advancing friendlies. :) Also, if friendlies are far enough from hostiles that you can overfly them prior to firing, they aren´t in danger close distance from the weapons. :)

I´m a former army captain, I´ve not had the role of JTAC, but from what I can tell the US regulations states differently. See last sentence.

 

"(b) Danger Close. Ordnance delivery inside the 0.1 percent Pi distance will be

considered “danger close.” The supported commander must accept responsibility for the risk

to friendly forces when targets are inside the 0.1 percent Pi distance. Risk acceptance is

confirmed when the supported commander passes their initials to the attacking CAS aircraft

through the JTAC/FAC(A), signifying that they accept the risk inherent in ordnance delivery

inside the 0.1 percent Pi distance. When ordnance is a factor in the safety of friendly troops,

the aircraft weapon’s axis of attack should be parallel to the friendly force’s axis or

orientation, to reduce the risk of munitions impacting long or short of the intended impact

point onto friendly positions"

 

Source: Joint publication 3-09.3 Close Air Support, 25 nov 2014

 

Usual caveats apply, the publication could be old and outdated, but from my, albeit groundlevel experience, firing over own troops would be a whole lot more dangerous than firing to the side of advancing friendlies. :) Also, if friendlies are far enough from hostiles that you can overfly them prior to firing, they aren´t in danger close distance from the weapons. :)

Still correct, overflying friendlies during the attack is really not a good idea.

Well, I am in no means an expert or with military experience, unlike some people here.

I've been told this by a person, who has said that he is an ex-marine, who has worked the controller role.

If you think about, it makes sense. With a steep dive, there is practically no chance for a backwards ricochet. As I'd assume that such an attack would be done from a pop-up position or from an orbit, you will be doing a steep(er) drive attack.

In a shallower dive, I'd believe that the chances of bullets dropping short, will be the same as a bullets ricocheting from rocks or hard surface and going to the side still endangering friendlies.

Well, if you are doing a really low level attack, I do see your point here, where having the friendlies in front of enemies will be dangerous.

Just my thoughts about it, as I said I am no expert, so I am probably wrong.

We can all agree on one tho, don't do the runs towards the friendlies :music_whistling:

@OP:

I'm not sure what language the campaign was originally made in, but it seems to me that that might not be a typo but rather a glitch in translation, as a dive angle should rather be called 'steep' or 'shallow' rather than 'high' and 'low', for the very reason it can be confusing.

@Direction:

Well, Marines and Army are two rather different animals to begin with, but I'd suspect that has a lot to do with the specific situations an individual might have experienced. For example the distance between target and friendly forces is a major factor. If, as you said, you can actually overfly friendlies before engaging, there is little danger there.

I think there is a misinterpretation of that document. If the weapon axis is parellel to the orientations of the friendly troops, then the aircraft is flying overtop of the friendlies and at the enemy they are facing.

Wrote one of our VWing's CAS Instructor who is active JTAC. He says you should avoid overflying friendlies at all cost. Final Attack Heading depends on the situation but ideally weapons should be dropped on friendlies 3-9 line. If weapon goes short or long then you don't risk fraggin friendly forces.

Cheers

Solo

Wrote one of our Wing's CAS Instructor who is active JTAC. He says you should avoid overflying friendlies at all cost. Final Attack Heading depends on the situation but ideally weapons should be dropped on friendlies 3-9 line. If weapon goes short or long then you don't risk fraggin friendly forces.

 

Cheers

Solo

Although Im confused with the wording first posted, Im releived to read this as it does confirm my instinct in terms of what feels safer. Im going with with weapon axis parallel to friendlies 3-9 line.

Added illustration to hopefully clear the confusion in the text.

Cheers

Solo

@Direction:

Well, Marines and Army are two rather different animals to begin with, but I'd suspect that has a lot to do with the specific situations an individual might have experienced. For example the distance between target and friendly forces is a major factor. If, as you said, you can actually overfly friendlies before engaging, there is little danger there.

This is partly true. Danger close means friendlies are in close proximity of the target. Close proximity is determined by the weapon and ammunition fired. It requires GC initials to be cleared. I would add that you can mitigate the damage to reduce or even remove a danger close (delay, covers..).

As for the attack heading, the rule of thumb is to simply keep the gun target line from crossing the friendly position both during and after the attack run. The attack heading and egress is determined not only by friendlies but also by threats, arty and hazards! But as HanSolo said, it's safer to fly on a parallel bearing, because in combat, longs or shorts can still happen (mistake or misfire) and it really feels unsafe to have a plane dive right on and over you.

I advise you also mitigate and think twice about the ordnance, even though the sim has standards for what destroys what.

Collateral damage management is a 3 days long class lol

Holy.... I just had a danger close situation while preparing my dinner just now....

I had some left over pizza, which I made . After I've reheated it, I put some salad in my plate next to the pizza, danger close, almost over it. The salad didn't have any seasoning on it tho...

So I grab some vinegar and aim it down in a steep dive angle across the salad (with the pizza behind it), when I thought to myself "Wait, I don't want to spray vinegar on my pizza.... holy shit this is like that thread on the forums....".

So, I changed my attack heading and laid down vinegar on the 3/9 line.

Thank you for this thread, it saved my pizza's taste.

:thumbup: +1

Just make sure (as in real life), that if you are going to do danger close guns and rockets, ingress from the direction of the friendly troops, so you can overfly them first, putting them behind you when engaging your target

the answer to this thread :thumbup:

Holy.... I just had a danger close situation while preparing my dinner just now....

 

I had some left over pizza, which I made . After I've reheated it, I put some salad in my plate next to the pizza, danger close, almost over it. The salad didn't have any seasoning on it tho...

 

So I grab some vinegar and aim it down in a steep dive angle across the salad (with the pizza behind it), when I thought to myself "Wait, I don't want to spray vinegar on my pizza.... holy shit this is like that thread on the forums....".

 

So, I changed my attack heading and laid down vinegar on the 3/9 line.

 

Thank you for this thread, it saved my pizza's taste.

Haha, Good One !

"3/9 line" Pizza, put that on the menue

Holy.... I just had a danger close situation while preparing my dinner just now....

 

I had some left over pizza, which I made . After I've reheated it, I put some salad in my plate next to the pizza, danger close, almost over it. The salad didn't have any seasoning on it tho...

 

So I grab some vinegar and aim it down in a steep dive angle across the salad (with the pizza behind it), when I thought to myself "Wait, I don't want to spray vinegar on my pizza.... holy shit this is like that thread on the forums....".

 

So, I changed my attack heading and laid down vinegar on the 3/9 line.

 

Thank you for this thread, it saved my pizza's taste.

nice one! :megalol: