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HB: Can we PLEASE consider Jester menu stability?


Bearfoot

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I think that menu stability, as fundamental principle of UI design, will work generally better across the board then the attempt to be helpful and anticipate our needs/wants. The microseconds saved by us not needing to click down one level is offset by the cost of not really being able to correctly anticipate unconsciously in muscle memory to locations of items we need. This is why menu item stability is such an important design principle. It is also very desirable from the point of view of being able to use macros or add-on's which help immersion and ergonomics, like voice-activated commands or streamdeck.

 


  •  
  • I call up Jester. Am I going to get the level menu or something else?
     
    Sometimes it's one, sometimes its another. I usually have a good guess, but I'm never sure. Always a split second extra for me to check what menu page I have open and figure out if I have to click the "A" binding again or not, depending on my needs and the Jester whim. EVEN if Jester has guessed correctly what I want! I still have to take some microseconds out from my current focus to be sure on my side. No big deal, but it's there, and it would not be there for no real long-term loss of ergonomics if Jester just opened at the top menu all the time. Not to mention it then makes it Voice Attack / Stream Deck friendly (for those with access/voice issues!).
     
    No matter, "A" twice forces always the top menu, so that's an easy enough work around. It drives my OCD UI-design sensibilities a little crazy, but at least there is a work around to achieve functional stability.

 

  • But the subpage situation is far less amenable to work-arounds. Almost every menu option order varies depending on, I dunno, just things.
     
    For e.g.,
    • I go to the BVR subpage. Sometimes LCtrl-1 = "Spot", LCtrl-2 = "STT", etc. But at other times, there's no "Spot", and LCtrl-1 = "STT" and so on. Everything is shifted! This, presumably, is tied to something going on outside, maybe with Jester sensing we are in WVR or something else? Not sure. Ultimately, the reason for the switch doesn't matter. The issue is this shifting menu. Which makes using things like Stream Deck or voice commands so frustrating or really complex as now we need plugins or other things to read the state within DCS.
    • Another e.g., radar standby vs. active. Here, it's "my doing", i.e., if I set radar to standby, the all the option numbers shift one way. Setting it to active shifts it another. Well and good. But still a little annoying, and, like all these cases, especially frustrating when trying to script voice-command emitted sequences or Stream Deck.

     

 

May I humbly suggest/ask/plead that HB consider implementing menu stability? At least as an option under the special options for the module if too many people are already used to the current modus operandi?

 

To do this, we need to have:

 

(a) Jester always opens at the top-level menu

(b) Subpages always retain all items in the same order. If an option is invalid in the current context (e.g., you cannot make an active radar go active or a standby radar go standby), then there are just dummies --- greyed out, and nothing happens if a user clicks it. Crucially, it is not removed if it is not valid, but remains as a placeholder, preserving menu structure for stable consistency.

 

I understand that there are a million other priorities as far as this module goes, and no doubt there's a lot of other things going on. But just want to put this out there before things become "too late" to change. I honestly think that while many might be happy/used to the current way, going forward as new people come on board, a non-dynamic Jester menu is really going to allow for cementing of the player/module interface better. The current "anticipation-which-gets-it-right-90%-of-the-time-at-the-cost-of-confusing-the-remaining-time" is in an uncanny valley.


Edited by Bearfoot
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I would support that notion. It is much easier, even when using TrackIR. You always need to check if you are over the correct option. OP explained it very well, and in general it is way more efficient to rely on "memory" to be quick than verify that the menu has not changed.

I vividly remember when Microsoft introduced "adaptive" menus. The most well received info during trainings, sessions with external consultants or helping someone with a PC issue, was when I showed them, how you could switch it to "always show complete menus"! I virtually never encountered anyone who really liked/wanted that feature. There where people who did not care, but the overwhelming majority did pretty much hate it.

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This had been brought up a few times in the past already.

I still support this opinion 100%, and I have absolutely no understanding for not implementing it in this way. Never had and never will have.

It didn't get better with the implentation of this and that during the last few updates (talking about O.B.).

 

 

This one is one of the (very seldom) "no go's" I have for HB modules.

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+1. Having the commands change messed with Voice Attack.

 

I would also like to see the option to make the menu smaller, especially in VR. I honestly don't think the menu needs to take up the entire screen and block your vision in the middle of combat.

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I agree. I was wondering if my mind was playing tricks on me with menu entries moving around in similar submenus. But now I think they truly are.

 

The way you can press key combinations through the radio menus and the special options menus on servers like Hoggit Georgia at War is very powerful. The Jester menu should be similar.

 

I am not a big fan of radial menus in general and believe that they come from a console background. Maybe you need to grow up with them to be good at using them. I prefer lists, grids, regular layouts where your eye can scan all options rapidly without having to scan a circle or donut to see what options are available. It is just not natural for me.

 

I believe rectangular layouts are easier for muscle memory and memory in general. The different angles in the radial menu seem to require more thinking.

 

For instance the radio frequency entry menu is very cumbersome with radial Jester and TrackIR. It is also a bit weird that a menu for entering digits changes for phases of entry or requires a submenu for "special" digit combinations (double zero). I believe a single centered column or row with the ten digits for selection could be better. Just look up or down (or left and right) and hit the same digit in the same spot rapidly if you don't move your head between entries.

 

I think most radial menus in games are more difficult to discern than lists or grids or "radial" menus or hierarchies with only 4 directions.

Radial menus might be quick if there are only 4 or 6, maybe 8 directions, but with 10 I think it becomes a matter of searching the correct angle with the eye every time.


Edited by Whirley
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I agree. I was wondering if my mind was playing tricks on me with menu entries moving around in similar submenus. But now I think they truly are.

 

The way you can press key combinations through the radio menus and the special options menus on servers like Hoggit Georgia at War is very powerful. The Jester menu should be similar.

 

I am not a big fan of radial menus in general and believe that they come from a console background. Maybe you need to grow up with them to be good at using them. I prefer lists, grids, regular layouts where your eye can scan all options rapidly without having to scan a circle or donut to see what options are available. It is just not natural for me.

 

I believe rectangular layouts are easier for muscle memory and memory in general. The different angles in the radial menu seem to require more thinking.

 

For instance the radio frequency entry menu is very cumbersome with radial Jester and TrackIR. It is also a bit weird that a menu for entering digits changes for phases of entry or requires a submenu for "special" digit combinations (double zero). I believe a single centered column or row with the ten digits for selection could be better. Just look up or down (or left and right) and hit the same digit in the same spot rapidly if you don't move your head between entries.

 

I think most radial menus in games are more difficult to discern than lists or grids or "radial" menus or hierarchies with only 4 directions.

Radial menus might be quick if there are only 4 or 6, maybe 8 directions, but with 10 I think it becomes a matter of searching the correct angle with the eye every time.

 

From a UX/UI point of view Radial Menus and their much less heard of relatives the Marked Menus are often the best interface for a concrete but hierarchical set of commands.

 

The issue here is that you never know what the start position when you call up the menu will be and because of that you lose speed and make mistakes.

 

The devs made the right call on the interface, just slightly botched the implementation, but it's a really easy fix.

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I believe rectangular layouts are easier for muscle memory and memory in general. The different angles in the radial menu seem to require more thinking.

 

(...)

I think most radial menus in games are more difficult to discern than lists or grids or "radial" menus or hierarchies with only 4 directions.

Radial menus might be quick if there are only 4 or 6, maybe 8 directions, but with 10 I think it becomes a matter of searching the correct angle with the eye every time.

 

The idea of the radial menu is great, as it is perfect for use with Headtracking instead of blocking a bunch of buttons or the need to grab the keyboard. Instead you simply glance at the option.

The problem is adaptive menu layout, where the Option 4 is sometimes at 3 o'clock and next time at 4 o'clock as you can't just remember but need to read, process, confirm each and every time you use it.

Shagrat

 

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The menu is tied to Jester's behavioral tree, and it is not something that can easily be changed. And as much as I hate saying no to you guys, it is most likely that we will not change this. And at the moment we also have no plans to do so. So, my apologies to disappoint on this.

 

There is also a list of reasons why this overall works as the better solution, from a development perspective, but also overall usability side: for those who do not use macros, or voice attack, etc it gets them quicker to be "interconnected" with Jester's current behavior state, which in return is connected with the player's current actions or situation. In other words, it is also a feedback system as much as it is an organisational panel.

 

However: this does not mean that there is no solution for your gripes, there very well is, and that is to add most important JESTER commands as inputs, which we plan on doing towards the end of EA. In this way they can be easily used both as macros as well as for third party programs like voice attack and will more or less bypass the menu tree for direct use.

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I like it the way it is. The menu almost always has the option of what I want right there as soon as I open it. Not sure how requiring you to repeatedly drill down for most actions is better.

 

It's good that it works for you. Stable menu is a fundamental UI design principle (both in established theory for the field as well as practice) for a good reason though --- adaptive menus do not work for most and are difficult to train muscle memory. It actually takes a little bit of focus to "read" the menu, even if it is open in the right place, whereas once "muscle-learned" you can just pick the option in the background while keeping your primary task focus on other things. As it is (typically) just one level of "drilling" saved/paid, so the time savings is negligible compared to the inability to condition muscle memory.

 

But again, different stokes for different folks.

 

And more to the point, as I noted in the OP, it's less the level the menu opens up (which can be dealt with by summoning Jester twice) at as much as how the option locations keep shifting around depending on availability. This requires reading all the options (every time) till you find the location of the one you want, and makes scripting voice commands / stream deck a major PIA (if even possible).

 

And even MORE to the point --- this whole discussion is now purely academic, as HB as said they are keep the menu as it is, but will be providing input bindings for the Jester commands to accommodate voice commands.


Edited by Bearfoot
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Thanks, IronMike.

 

Providing inputs for Jester commands will alleviate a lot of problems for those of us using voice commands or stream deck.

 

Thank you.

 

The menu is tied to Jester's behavioral tree, and it is not something that can easily be changed. And as much as I hate saying no to you guys, it is most likely that we will not change this. And at the moment we also have no plans to do so. So, my apologies to disappoint on this.

 

There is also a list of reasons why this overall works as the better solution, from a development perspective, but also overall usability side: for those who do not use macros, or voice attack, etc it gets them quicker to be "interconnected" with Jester's current behavior state, which in return is connected with the player's current actions or situation. In other words, it is also a feedback system as much as it is an organisational panel.

 

However: this does not mean that there is no solution for your gripes, there very well is, and that is to add most important JESTER commands as inputs, which we plan on doing towards the end of EA. In this way they can be easily used both as macros as well as for third party programs like voice attack and will more or less bypass the menu tree for direct use.

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The menu is tied to Jester's behavioral tree, and it is not something that can easily be changed.

 

Can you elaborate on this? When we make selections are we simply overweighting decisions the AI is considering? Are we litterally "seeing jester's brain" when we look a the wheel?

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Can you elaborate on this? When we make selections are we simply overweighting decisions the AI is considering? Are we litterally "seeing jester's brain" when we look a the wheel?

 

 

 

 

I won't go into the indepth workings of Jester, partially because I can't and partially because we do not want to reveal everything, but I'll try to answer as best as I can:

 

If you want to keep the analogy, you are not so much seeing his brain, as you are seeing his thoughts. In other words: suggestions. Jester's AI is situational, which means that the actions of the player or the situation he is in, defines the "mindstate" of Jester. In A2G his main focus will be A2G. But: that does not mean you see "all his thoughts", because he will still sanitize the sky, cross check settings, recognize threads, readout radar contacts and so on. Which, if you override his "thoughts" is of course all available. This not only makes the menu more forward towards the player's situation, but it also allows us to make him more adaptive with a focus switching between more and less important tasks according to the necessities of whatever situation you and him might find yourself in. I hope that answers your question.

 

 

There's a possible conundrum of course, if you go with the thoughts twist, since these listed thoughts are actually your speech choices to him, so in a way, one could say, that we assume, what you assume that he assumes what you assume. :D So, how would we know what you assume? We don't. But Jester does, because of his situational awareness. He's the key, and hence this "feedback loop" is so favorable in the menu, etc... Unfortunately we're all made up of irregularities and exceptions, so the caveat is that sometimes your foremost thought will not be his foremost thought (and you need to step menus). And that is where the direct bindings will help. You can bypass this feedback loop and "talk more directly" then. :)


Edited by IronMike

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Hi IronMike,

 

Would you be able to explain the circumstances in the BVR submenu sometimes has a "Spot" option and sometimes doesn't? The quantum physics level of mystical disappearing "Spot" is what makes mapping the Jester commands very tricky in this submenu, as all the options shift depending on whether it is there or not.

 

I won't go into the indepth workings of Jester, partially because I can't and partially because we do not want to reveal everything, but I'll try to answer as best as I can:

 

If you want to keep the analogy, you are not so much seeing his brain, as you are seeing his thoughts. In other words: suggestions. Jester's AI is situational, which means that the actions of the player or the situation he is in, defines the "mindstate" of Jester. In A2G his main focus will be A2G. But: that does not mean you see "all his thoughts", because he will still sanitize the sky, cross check settings, recognize threads, readout radar contacts and so on. Which, if you override his "thoughts" is of course all available. This not only makes the menu more forward towards the player's situation, but it also allows us to make him more adaptive with a focus switching between more and less important tasks according to the necessities of whatever situation you and him might find yourself in. I hope that answers your question.

 

 

There's a possible conundrum of course, if you go with the thoughts twist, since these listed thoughts are actually your speech choices to him, so in a way, one could say, that we assume, what you assume that he assumes what you assume. :D So, how would we know what you assume? We don't. But Jester does, because of his situational awareness. He's the key, and hence this "feedback loop" is so favorable in the menu, etc... Unfortunately we're all made up of irregularities and exceptions, so the caveat is that sometimes your foremost thought will not be his foremost thought (and you need to step menus). And that is where the direct bindings will help. You can bypass this feedback loop and "talk more directly" then. :)

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I'd love to know what "Spot" even does.

 

 

+1

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I'd love to know what "Spot" even does.

 

From https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4091185&postcount=40:

 

 

Hi Shadow, if you look above Swither already replied:

 

Spot makes Jester view in the same direction of the pilot's centre point of view for a short amount of time, then he reverts back to his usual scanning process. It is useful if you want him to cover a certain side, etc.. I dont remember exactly how long, but I think it was something between 10 and 20 seconds.

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The menu is tied to Jester's behavioral tree, and it is not something that can easily be changed.

 

But we're fine with the situational (first) menu and also accept the second menu (full, main, however you call it) - what is wrong is that elements in the second menu change places - this is not acceptable. Also, please, admit that any number inputing is cumbersome at current implementation, you can't just be happy with that. We can wait for the end of EA for such changes but I don't believe you're fine with the current menu as is.

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Thanks for the great and constructive post Bearfoot!

 

We know the shifting menu items are not ideal in all situations, but there are some development reasons why it was implemented as-is, and we have to deploy development resources elsewhere, at least for now.

This is one of those "easy to fix, hard to implement" issues that we will need to look at in the future (e.g. preferred rose slot per command, greyed out, other solution?) - without making any guarantees on exact changes today.

 

 

But we're fine with the situational (first) menu and also accept the second menu (full, main, however you call it) - what is wrong is that elements in the second menu change places - this is not acceptable. Also, please, admit that any number inputing is cumbersome at current implementation, you can't just be happy with that. We can wait for the end of EA for such changes but I don't believe you're fine with the current menu as is.

 

We are and we do consider the current implementation acceptable. I am aware of how that sounds (I don't intend to be dismissive) - but I can't agree that this is any kind of EA showstopper functionality issue at all.


Edited by Cobra847

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Thanks for the great and constructive post Bearfoot!

 

We know the shifting menu items are not ideal in all situations, but there are some development reasons why it was implemented as-is, and we have to deploy development resources elsewhere, at least for now.

This is one of those "easy to fix, hard to implement" issues that we will need to look at in the future (e.g. preferred rose slot per command, greyed out, other solution?) - without making any guarantees on exact changes today.

 

 

 

 

We are and we do consider the current implementation acceptable. I am aware of how that sounds (I don't intend to be dismissive) - but I can't agree that this is any kind of EA showstopper functionality issue at all.

 

Thank you and your team, not just for a wonderful module but also for the clear commitment and passion that motivates your work on it!

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This is one of those "easy to fix, hard to implement" issues that we will need to look at in the future (e.g. preferred rose slot per command, greyed out, other solution?) - without making any guarantees on exact changes today.

This is a good solution, as it would leave the menu intact. I am very happy with the radial menu and how you can use Headtracking to select options. The issue is only the changing structure/position of the option in the radial, that makes it unnecessarily difficult to quickly select the same option from memory, as you are required to at least verify that you are hovering over the correct option and can't rely on "3" is always the third field...

And, no it isn't the most important thing on the list, but it would make the menu much easier to use. So if at the end when things are wrapped up you could look into it, I guess a lot of people will appreciate it. Well, at least I would. :)

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