[CORRECT AS IS] 2S6 EW alert?

Track attached.

Tunguska not giving radar warning.

If the tunguska doesnt guide via radar then how is it possible it launched with a cloud layer of 10/10?

tunguska rwr cloud layer.trk

Can't check track file now but tunguska is IR. Dont know.

I think the Tunguska is radio command guidance.

Can't check track file now but tunguska is IR. Dont know.

I think the Tunguska is radio command guidance.

Question stands then :)

Last time I checked you do get a spike on the RWR when a Tunguska is shooting at you but won't get a launch warning. Perhaps because the radar is used to get target position updates and then correct the missile via radio command guidance.

Last time I checked you do get a spike on the RWR when a Tunguska is shooting at you but won't get a launch warning. Perhaps because the radar is used to get target position updates and then correct the missile via radio command guidance.

What you say happens with the Rappier for the mentioned reasons, but the tunguska doesnt provide anything but a search indication.

That's all it needs to guide towards you.

Also, of course, AI units don't particularly follow any rules of visibility.

That's all it needs to guide towards you.

 

Also, of course, AI units don't particularly follow any rules of visibility.

That doesnt apply to electro optical.

It quite obviously does, since that's why this thread exists.

Tunguska fires in all weather and typically doesn’t rely on optics unless the target is danger close (I can’t watch the track, so not sure if that’s the case but I assume you weren’t because you were above the clouds.). Tunguska can track multiple targets and engage multiple targets- this means it’s launching in TWS. In DCS, TWS doesn’t provide any launch warning unless your airframe is equipped with MWS (like the a10c.) The f18 we have is not so equipped.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-96K6-Pantsir-2K22-Tunguska.html

These little guys remain one of the most deadly threats in DCS.

TJ

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There was a great thread about this four months ago - a quick search of Tunguska brought it back as the third search result. Not sure if the link will copy properly with Tapatalk. Just try the search and you can find it.

SA-19 no MWS or lock on warning?

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=74365&share_tid=215196&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Eeagle%2Eru%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D215196&share_type=t

TJ

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That doesnt apply to electro optical.

Thermals can sort of see through clouds, but its not perfect, and performance is degraded.

Tunguska fires in all weather and typically doesn’t rely on optics unless the target is danger close (I can’t watch the track, so not sure if that’s the case but I assume you weren’t because you were above the clouds.). Tunguska can track multiple targets and engage multiple targets- this means it’s launching in TWS. In DCS, TWS doesn’t provide any launch warning unless your airframe is equipped with MWS (like the a10c.) The f18 we have is not so equipped.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-96K6-Pantsir-2K22-Tunguska.html

 

These little guys remain one of the most deadly threats in DCS.

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is indeed a good answer, thanks.

Something that appears to have been missed here is that the Tunguska has two radars, a search radar (the spinning one on the back of the turret) and a track radar on the front of the turret.

The search radar is likely TWS, but it isn't accurate enough in track fidelity to guide a missile. Its main job is finding and cueing to targets. However, it could give reasonably accurate range and possibly altitude data to determine when to fire. You frequently see the search radar pop up on RWR in DCS

As far as as the track radar goes, I'm not confident the game models this engagement method properly/at all. using the tracking radar gives a higher probability of hitting the target and is a requisite if you are shooting in conditions where TV/IR conditions don't allow optical tracking of the target (literally laying crosshairs on the target like the Vikhr/HOT3 for example). It's also a heavily automated mode, so is best for rapid defensive engagements against fleeting targets.

I suspect DCS just defaults to the 2S6 finding targets with its search radar, then conducting optical engagements all of the time. This is fine for clear day/night engagements, but shooting through low cloud and fog is a unrealistic at best.

If you want the extreme of this, go up against the Chinese HQ-7 in game. The launch unit has no radar emissions you can detect at all, and it happily conducts silent engagements through cloud up to 21,000 ft.

Tunguska has (as mentioned) two radars.

Search radar for autonomous target search.

Ranging radar for cannons.

The guidance for missiles is over radio. You do not receive RF emissions from a search, lock or guidance. Only way is to have visual detection of launch of missiles.

The guidance is done using a optical, TV or FLIR. This is why Tunguska is so stealthy as it can receive the threat information over radio, and simply start visually search a target from expected direction. It as well can connect to SAM network for early earning information, to get automatic direction and altitude.

The ranging radar is used for cannons. That is when you will get a lock tone when you are ranged and cannons starts to shoot at you. Otherwise if any warning you would receive is a search radar pinging, nothing else.

So when a tank battalions are moving, there are few tunguska defending company. Few shilkas and lots of manpaads and other anti-air material.

And radar that you likely see in your RWR is a SAM site further distance, behind a mu,triple layers of all kind AA units that you can't detect than in final seconds.

The sad thing is as well that we so not have similar capability for other Soviet SAM systems, where jamming and countermeasures don't help much unless properly done. And even then they can launch and guide missiles optically using TV or FLIR as required. And only RWR you receive is just few seconds before missile explodes, not when it is launched.

Tunguska fires in all weather and typically doesn’t rely on optics unless the target is danger close (I can’t watch the track, so not sure if that’s the case but I assume you weren’t because you were above the clouds.). Tunguska can track multiple targets and engage multiple targets- this means it’s launching in TWS. In DCS, TWS doesn’t provide any launch warning unless your airframe is equipped with MWS (like the a10c.) The f18 we have is not so equipped.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-96K6-Pantsir-2K22-Tunguska.html

 

These little guys remain one of the most deadly threats in DCS.

No TWS, no radar lock for missiles required and only one target at time as guidance is optical.

Problem in DCS is that there is no even semi-believable air defense systems, but all on ground are more like fishes in aquarium.

It would appear the 2S6 is using its track radar. The following image is from the JF17, it shows three radars 2S6 ('19') associated radars on the HSI/SA page.

Note that the closest radar has the 'crosshair' symbol rather than a simple circle. This indicates that the radar is threat/tracking. It also matches to when the 2S6 slews to target the JF17 ingame. The issue is that it doesn't give audio warning that you are now being tracked.

This behaviour is not observed in the FA18, AV8B or A10A (noting other Aircraft were not tested).

It would appear the 2S6 is using its track radar.

Tunguska should appear on RWR only on two cases:

1) It is using its own search radar to search targets.

2) You are at close distance from it so it switches to guns and it will use tracking radar for ranging when firing cannons.

For a missiles it doesn't need radar at all. Even the cannons can be used without radar, but it is like old ZSU-23-4 by using optical aiming with predictions.

The search radar operation is as well possible just for target search and then optical tracking, turn search radar off and it can even move while your launched ARM is goner as there is no radar to track and no target in location.

So search radar On, find target in 20-30 km distance, track it optically and then radar off and move, wait the target to come closer.

No TWS, no radar lock for missiles required and only one target at time as guidance is optical.

 

 

 

Problem in DCS is that there is no even semi-believable air defense systems, but all on ground are more like fishes in aquarium.

If you have other data, cite it. I'd like to read it.

TJ

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Did you even read the article linked? It clearly cites where they believe it can track up to nine targets. This unit was apparently created to combat the jsow saturation possible by a single aircraft. Although yes, it can also launch and rely solely on optics using flir to track the missile and the laser to track the target.

 

If you have other data, cite it. I'd like to read it.

 

TJ

 

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Fri is correct.

Note that article covers 2 systems: the SA19/2S6/Tunguska, and the SA22/Pantsyr, which is based on the 2S6 but uses much more advanced radars in addition to the optical guidance.

The version we have in DCS is the SA19, the SA22 is not modelled in DCS.

Yeah as per what Fri13 said.

Engagement with missiles uses SACLOS guidance (I think) whereby an operator tracks the target visually (either EO/IR (?)) and the fire-control system relays radio commands to the missile, to tell it how to conduct the intercept. I've also seen that the 9M311 can also use fully automatic CLOS guidance using the tracking RADAR (similar fashion to Rapier w. Blindfire) though [citation needed]

For guns they can be laid using the tracking RADAR to provide range and lead, or can function using the optical system, which I think uses a laser rangefinder (I guess using a similar FCS to tank auto-lead).

Tunguska using optical guidance for shooting through clouds might be a little off.

I think it's fair to say that air defences in DCS are fairly low-fidelity in a few aspects, with sensors probably being one of the biggest offenders.

Fri is correct.

 

 

 

Note that article covers 2 systems: the SA19/2S6/Tunguska, and the SA22/Pantsyr, which is based on the 2S6 but uses much more advanced radars in addition to the optical guidance.

 

 

 

The version we have in DCS is the SA19, the SA22 is not modelled in DCS.

TJ

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