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Finally I fight without blowing my engine


Mirtma

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I was getting frustrated. Dogfighting against Dora and always ending with engine blown up. Of course: because my ignorance. I've read through forums and finally I found what I was doing wrong (or better, how should I fly). :smartass: I must always look at manifold and RPM. And those are regulated by throttle and propeller control. Only thing to do now is to aim more steadily. :joystick:

 

Dora was like Swiss cheese but still flying. Me, without an ammo flying home. But flying. With engine. :pilotfly: :thumbup:

 

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I was getting frustrated. Dogfighting against Dora and always ending with engine blown up. Of course: because my ignorance. I've read through forums and finally I found what I was doing wrong (or better, how should I fly). :smartass: I must always look at manifold and RPM. And those are regulated by throttle and propeller control. Only thing to do now is to aim more steadily. :joystick:

 

Dora was like Swiss cheese but still flying. Me, without an ammo flying home. But flying. With engine. :pilotfly: :thumbup:

 

 

Nice work! :thumbup:

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believe me... you have shoot the Dora 3 times more "Swiss-cheese-like" to get her down...

 

explain you personal trick not to blow your engine... did you do something with the the cooling?

 

No. Only looking at those two gauges (manifold, RPM) not to cross red line. And being careful when diving.

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Yes, I've noticed that (and read about it too). Must get used to it. And since my TrackIR is broken it's hard to keep an eye on all of them. I've installed DCS P-51D Instruments from Leon Portman on Android tablet and it's easier that way.Only that temperature gauge is on the same spot as RPM (must tap RPM gauge twice to see temperature). And sometimes, in the heat of the fight, this is almost impossible.

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I set 4 buttons for the radiator and engine oil cowl flaps to manually cool the engine. A button opens each and separately closes their cover which in turn switches each back to auto. I have a Logitec G510 keyboard with 54 programmable G-keys apart from my CH Products controllers. Manually cooling helps.

 

In Single Player (SP) in the Mission Editor, lighten your fuel load and leave the enemy fighter at 100%. Other thing you can do so enemy fighter is not so lethal is slow his average speed by 100 mph, until you get better and want more of a challenge.

 

Read in the Flight Manual about aiming the gun using the moving reticule and placing the enemy plane's image within it. I still use the steady reticule and allow for lead.


Edited by DieHard

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@DieHard Thank you for advice. I will try that. I also like static gunsight more. What setting should I use for Dora wingspan?

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I set 4 buttons for the radiator and engine oil cowl flaps to manually cool the engine. A button opens each and separately closes their cover which in turn switches each back to auto. I have a Logitec G510 keyboard with 54 programmable G-keys apart from my CH Products controllers. Manually cooling helps.

 

There are 4 states for each. Auto, Cover, Close, Open. I believe I must configure Close and Open to my Joystick?

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I have a, perhaps, odd sounding question: how do you blow up your engine?

 

I fly the P-51 against the FW with all realism settings turned on. Max throttle, max RPM, WEP engaged for 20minutes+, and no apparent adverse consequences for my engine. Am I doing something wrong? I'm left with the feeling that there is a way to squeeze more power out of the engine that I am missing and that this might be why I have such a hard time maneuvering the P-51 or keeping any speed.

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I blow up engine without using "E" key (WEP power) in few minutes if I'm not careful. Are you playing on Game or on Sim mode?

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Besides opening all your radiators.. at RPM set to approx 2900

As the AI likes the 'zoom-climb' thing you plan your flight around the downward an downward trip.

 

Going down you increase MP maxing just before the bottom of the curve. You're going pretty fast at this time so cooling will be maximised.

On the way up you reduce MP, minimising at around 40 at the top.

 

Essentially you're moving the throttle lever back and forth all the time, and coolant and air temps do not vary that much. Also you can keep fairly close to the FW all the time with no WEP, 'popping it off' at the right moment.

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When I open radiators, they don't stay open? As I can see, switch is jumping back as soon as I release it.

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I find the trick is airspeed. The Fw190 will often climb and when you have the energy climb with him he will inevitably dive for airspeed and you must make use of that opportunity to gain you're airspeed up ( i go for WEP and go as fast as possible) because the faster you go the more you can cool down you're temperatures. I was for a long time scared to use WEP but now I've practiced it and realise youre airspeed has a large influence I've gained an understanding of how long I can use it in a climb before I have to ease the throttle back. If you're flying at 150mph and you go to WEP and enter a high angle climb you're engine will die very quickly for example. The other thing i always do is manually open my radiator to maximum i find this works for me. It's taken a lot of practice but its a lot of fun and very satisfying when you claim a kill or two!


Edited by westr

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I find the trick is airspeed. The Fw190 will often climb and when you have the energy climb with him he will inevitably dive for airspeed and you must make use of that opportunity to gain you're airspeed up ( i go for WEP and go as fast as possible) because the faster you go the more you can cool down you're temperatures. I was for a long time scared to use WEP but now I've practiced it and realise youre airspeed has a large influence I've gained an understanding of how long I can use it in a climb before I have to ease the throttle back. If you're flying at 150mph and you go to WEP and enter a high angle climb you're engine will die in a minute for example. The other thing i always do is manually open my radiator to maximum i find this works for me. It's taken a lot of practice but its a lot of fun and very satisfying when you claim a kill or two!

 

I don't think people need WEP as much as they think they do. It appears that the real-world effects of War EMERGENCY Power are not fully modeled within DCS. However, It is extensively documented that heat is not the only detrimental effect of pushing the engine to these points. I personally think it's a bad idea to get in the habit of using WEP in every dogfight. You can perform on par or better than the AI without WEP. I have it mapped on my throttle but hardly ever feel the need to use it.

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When I open radiators, they don't stay open? As I can see, switch is jumping back as soon as I release it.

 

If you want them to stay open make sure you don't close the switch cover. That will push the switch to AUTO. Take a close while on the ground.

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I did for a long time not use WEP because I kept breaking my engine. But I do now use it sparingly and have found it sometimes just gives me a little more edge for example lining up a shot before the P-51 stalls than before. Just my personal opinion. I could shoot down aircraft without using it but i find it can really get the P51 moving going downhill.

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It appears that the real-world effects of War EMERGENCY Power are not fully modeled within DCS.

 

What do you mean? Long-term (over multiple flights) wear & tear, because of DCS not featuring persistent damage?

 

I don't think people need WEP as much as they think they do.

I personally think it's a bad idea to get in the habit of using WEP in every dogfight.

 

I must respectfully disagree, Merlin. When two human players in the same type of fighter have a "standard duelling protocol" fight (co-E, co-angle, co-visual, co-fuel, etc.; i.e., mirrored situation when the two begin to approach each other from about ten miles), if the two are fairly similar in skill, the one who uses WEP correctly generally wins if the other does not. Military power doesn't give you enough power to use combat flap more than once in a rare while--it slows you down too much. But when you're at WEP, you can drop combat flap for a fairly long period and this combination of WEP & 10 deg. flap will give you a clear edge over your opponent who does not. I tried it both ways against the same duelling opponents, even during the same fight. Whoever went WEP & flap while the other stayed mil & clean would start to rapidly overtake the other in turning maneuvers (this wasn't limited to flat turns, but included yo-yos and combat turns and such).

 

WEP may be a different story with purely vertical maneuvers, but my maneuvers tend to be more horizontal than vertical; in other flight sim-games, I tended to be more vertical, but I find in DCS that I cannot maintain visual contact with the enemy if I let him get too far away from me and/or too far below the horizon. Additionally, with two similar aircraft having similar energy states, there generally isn't the possibility of pure-vertical fighting effectively. If you try, you're going to lose to the other guy who goes more horizontal (again, not necessarily flat turns), if his general skill is comparable to yours.

 

I've extensively tried being sparing with my WEP, turning it on and off to keep my engine at an acceptable temperature, but I found that I kept losing to my opponent who simply went all-out WEP; his using WEP when I wasn't made the fight short enough that his engine didn't fail before he was able to shoot me down. Only when I started using my own WEP more aggressively at the beginning of the fight was I able to match him (firewalling it only after I noticed that he was out-maneuvering me didn't usually cut it--by then, it was too late). This sort of battle, naturally, is time-sensitive--the trick is to try to beat the other guy before both his and your engines overheat!

 

YRMV, of course, but I have had quite a bit of experience with duelling virtual pilots with both similar and varying degrees of skill, and trying out different things in each fight. I'd gladly have a few test duels with you and show you what I'm talking about--taking turns using WEP & flap and staying cool & clean--but, my hand ...


Edited by Echo38
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Now I've created SP mission 3 vs 3. And my engine begin to blow again. I don't have time to look at the gauges. I open both radiators, set RPM high, but bellow red zone ... I don't know how did the real pilots dogfight without blowing engines when many planes was around, and I think that they looked more around than at gauges?


Edited by Mirtma

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What do you mean? Long-term (over multiple flights) wear & tear, because of DCS not featuring persistent damage?

 

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word long-term. The stresses on the engine internals is the most dangerous side effect of running WEP for extended durations (In RL) as far as I understand. As far as the sim, well we've seen on many occasions, instances where you can run WEP almost indefinitely, turning flat, with no damage to the plane. How is this accurate when the official recommendation is to not use it for over 5 minutes? DavidRed posted a thread about this not long ago. I'm not disagreeing that WEP gives you some level of improved performance, only that its regular use by virtual pilots is a departure from real-world practices.

 

I must respectfully disagree, Merlin. When two human players in the same type of fighter have a "standard duelling protocol" fight (co-E, co-angle, co-visual, co-fuel, etc.; i.e., mirrored situation when the two begin to approach each other from about ten miles), if the two are fairly similar in skill, the one who uses WEP correctly generally wins if the other does not. Military power doesn't give you enough power to use combat flap more than once in a rare while--it slows you down too much. But when you're at WEP, you can drop combat flap for a fairly long period and this combination of WEP & 10 deg. flap will give you a clear edge over your opponent who does not. I tried it both ways against the same duelling opponents, even during the same fight. Whoever went WEP & flap while the other stayed mil & clean would start to rapidly overtake the other in turning maneuvers (this wasn't limited to flat turns, but included yo-yos and combat turns and such).

 

WEP may be a different story with purely vertical maneuvers, but my maneuvers tend to be more horizontal than vertical; in other flight sim-games, I tended to be more vertical, but I find in DCS that I cannot maintain visual contact with the enemy if I let him get too far away from me and/or too far below the horizon. Additionally, with two similar aircraft having similar energy states, there generally isn't the possibility of pure-vertical fighting effectively. If you try, you're going to lose to the other guy who goes more horizontal (again, not necessarily flat turns), if his general skill is comparable to yours.

 

I've extensively tried being sparing with my WEP, turning it on and off to keep my engine at an acceptable temperature, but I found that I kept losing to my opponent who simply went all-out WEP; his using WEP when I wasn't made the fight short enough that his engine didn't fail before he was able to shoot me down. Only when I started using my own WEP more aggressively at the beginning of the fight was I able to match him (firewalling it only after I noticed that he was out-maneuvering me didn't usually cut it--by then, it was too late). This sort of battle, naturally, is time-sensitive--the trick is to try to beat the other guy before both his and your engines overheat!

 

YRMV, of course, but I have had quite a bit of experience with duelling virtual pilots with both similar and varying degrees of skill, and trying out different things in each fight. I'd gladly have a few test duels with you and show you what I'm talking about--taking turns using WEP & flap and staying cool & clean--but, my hand ...

 

Of course, the respect is on both sides of the table, Echo. :) I see what you are saying and I don't doubt that you are able to use WEP effectively. I myself am not the ultimate combat pilot in the DCS skies, however there are maybe 3 or 4 virtual pilots that I've flown against that, when equally matched, I could not out-turn without using WEP. This is out of a sampling of 100+ opponents so far. And with that I use the combat flaps very often, so I assume I do just as much "turn-fighting" as you but I do actually use them without WEP. I agree with you that the visibility issues keep me close to my adversary most of the time. The risk of losing visual generally outweighs the inherent risk of burning all your E chasing the guy on the deck with his rudder kicked.

 

So, my over-arching point/opinion remains that I see using WEP full-time akin to choosing unlimited ammo. If you can use WEP... which is an engine setting reserved for emergency situations during which it pushes the powerplant to its uppermost limits, throughout your fight, then something is not quite right.

 

I endured an aggravating ankle injury for about 5 months that had me worried I would have to hang up my pedals...but that seems to be coming around finally. I'm hoping your hand also heals up soon, or maybe you can procure some bionic alternative. You are always welcome to come over and "throw down the gauntlet" and the day I see "Echo38 has entered the game" on my server will be a glorious one indeed.

:beer:

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Huh. I can't keep my engine at WEP for more than a short couple of minutes in combat. If I try a high-alpha stall-fight, WEP kills the engine in seconds (literally). It's been a few versions since I've flown, but I was under the impression that they haven't changed anything with the P-51 since then. Maybe it's because I leave the radiator on auto? (I've been told it makes a big difference, but I simply can't afford to fiddle with the radiator switch on top of everything else--even if my mind were good for it, it'd mean letting go of my camera keys for, what, 20 seconds?)

 

My view of WEP isn't "go ahead and charge around all day with it, no problem," but more "a dead engine is better than a dead me!" I often burn up my engine during the course of the fight, due to my WEP-use. I lose more often due to engine overheat than to bullets! That sounds like a green mistake, but consider this: if I don't use WEP, I'm going to get shot down by my opponent who is using WEP (at least if it's an otherwise reasonably even fight). So rather than being carefree about WEP, it's more of a desperate race to see who can win before his engine overheats. Kind of like those real-life Russian fighter pilots who had their lend-lease P-40s overboosted and used WEP in every fight against 109s (but had to have the engines replaced every two flights).

 

If I were to question the sim's modelling of WEP (not that I do--I don't know enough about the real-life Merlin to have an opinion about the heat model--my info on the real thing is mostly limited to the flawed USAAF manual), it would be "Why can't I ever last 5 minutes on WEP like the USAAF manual says," rather than "How come we can last so much longer than the 5 minutes that the USAAF manual says?" Uh, that's tongue-in-cheek; I have a pretty good idea why I can't make it for 5 minutes on WEP: because of my relatively slow airspeed (maybe 230 MPH average during the fight), and because of my lower altitude than the escort P-51s were running at (I typically dogfight at 10,000 feet or less). But I've always been perplexed by the reports various people have that their engines in the sim are too tolerant of abuse--mine always is very cross with me when I don't do things just so.


Edited by Echo38
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hey guys, ok entering the discussion as well....

i have just to say, that im still not confident whether using WEP for really extended periods doesnt have any bad effects on the engine...

although i manage to fly for pretty much "all day" with WEP engaged, without the engine dying on me, i wouldnt bet that it doesnt have any negative effects.

i now fought against really good pilots several times....sometimes with WEP engaged the whole fight, sometimes for certain short periods, and sometimes i fought the same people without using WEP at all....

 

my conclusion is, that i dont have one...

all i know is, that i didnt lose one of those fights because of WEP or the lack of it, but only because i just made another mistake during the fight.

on the other hand,i just flew clean in the fights i won either with WEP or without it.

 

i do know, that it is possible to fly with WEP engaged for about 30min continuous at least, and probably more(i got bored at some point) without blowing the engine....i do not know, whether this treatment results in very subtle engine damage though....

 

where is yo-yo? :)

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I started employing some of the techniques I read about for engine management in IL2 for the P-51 in particular. Reducing my MP and RPM in the dive and increasing them in a climb. Seems to work favorably for energy efficiency and managing temps. I actually end up so fast in the dive I have be really careful not to snap my wings off, as I have done a couple times. I still haven't gotten an outright kill on the FW190. I've managed to tag him a couple times and eventually maneuver him into the ground twice.

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my conclusion is, that i dont have one...

all i know is, that i didnt lose one of those fights because of WEP or the lack of it, but only because i just made another mistake during the fight.

 

Ah, but what about when you reach the level of proficiency where neither pilot is making noticeable mistakes in his maneuvering? At very high levels of v-pilot skill, 5% fuel discrepancy is noticeable and can make the difference between winning or losing.

 

There was a pilot in another sim-game whom I duelled very often. At the time, we were fairly close in dogfighting skill (he did some things better, I did other things better--overall, I think he was a bit better than me, but our fights were usually very close and it came down to who was having a better day and who was tired), and some of our fights were practically mirrored. One time, we were in a low-and-slow turning fight, trying to see who could out-turn the other with simple flat turns (we'd done this quite a bit in past fights, too, although our fights varied greatly as we experimented). This time, I was gaining on him in the turn--unusual for the aircraft matchup we were using--I said, "Peter, you feel heavy. You sure you only took 20% fuel?" (That being the agreed amount for the duel.) He replied, "Yes, pretty sure." I shot him down shortly afterward, having slowly gained on him. He checked his settings, and, sure enough, he had 25% fuel. Since I was so familiar with his flying, and since we were so close in skill, I was able to notice that extra 5% fuel. And it let me win in an aircraft matchup where I usually lost sustained turning fights.

 

When you get to that level of dogfighting skill, WEP is more than noticeable; it's a ~10% difference, more than twice the amount that an expert can perceive. In a chaotic dogfight with many people, in which luck plays a large factor, it might not matter so terribly, but in an even duel, WEP-use is a large element.

 

i do know, that it is possible to fly with WEP engaged for about 30min continuous at least

 

What are you doing differently than me? Why am I struggling to reach even 5 minutes on WEP, but you're able to do a half-hour? Manual radiator? Are you turning at medium speeds (~200–250), or are you keeping your speed high (300+)? You flying at high alt and/or in winter?


Edited by Echo38
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