R-73 Major Tracking Bug (DCS 2.5.4) - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-27-2019, 09:50 PM   #1
Cmptohocah
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Serbia
Posts: 83
Exclamation R-73 Major Tracking Bug (DCS 2.5.4)

I have just noticed that for some reason my R-73 was navigating and hit an on coming AIM120-C that finished its booster phase of flight long time before the impact.

Unless I am badly mistaking, this is a major bug in R-73's tracking. I see (and please correct me if I am wrong) no reason/way how can an IR missile confuse a flying cylinder to a fighter jet.

I am providing the video of the incident as an attachment. Please note that last few seconds of the video are in slow-motion for better view.

__________________
Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH
Cmptohocah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2019, 09:52 PM   #2
razo+r
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,980
Default

The missile does not differenciate between a plane and a missile. If it sees heat, it goes there. And both missiles and planes emit heat.
razo+r is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2019, 07:48 AM   #3
draconus
Senior Member
 
draconus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,262
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by razo+r View Post
If it sees heat, it goes there. And both missiles and planes emit heat.
15s after burning the fuel?
draconus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2019, 11:46 PM   #4
AeriaGloria
Member
 
AeriaGloria's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LA
Posts: 718
Default

I’ve gotten EOS locks on terminal Phoenix missiles, I think it’s certianly possible. Nothing more badass than shooting all your opponents missiles down!
AeriaGloria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2019, 10:04 AM   #5
Cmptohocah
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Serbia
Posts: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeriaGloria View Post
I’ve gotten EOS locks on terminal Phoenix missiles, I think it’s certianly possible. Nothing more badass than shooting all your opponents missiles down!
Even if I did get an EOS lock on an incoming A2A (which I doubt is possible), how did it track the AMRAAM which had no booster operating?
__________________
Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH
Cmptohocah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2019, 10:05 AM   #6
razo+r
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,980
Default

In real life, it would be due to remaining heat and friction and maybe other stuff too. But of course only to a certain degree at a certain angle.

In DCS, it's because it's an unit/object.

Edit: I just came across this here again:


Last edited by razo+r; 05-29-2019 at 10:09 AM.
razo+r is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2019, 10:10 AM   #7
AeriaGloria
Member
 
AeriaGloria's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LA
Posts: 718
Default

While I understand the R-73 seeker is called infrared, I do not know it’s exact used spectrum, but I do know that the OLS-27 is slightly in between infrared and visual, allowing it to lock onto shapes with contrast.
AeriaGloria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2019, 10:29 AM   #8
Fri13
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,242
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by draconus View Post
15s after burning the fuel?
Yes. The missile is not cold one.

When you start flying, the air will cause tredenmous friction to everything in the aircraft, including missiles you are have hanging from pylons.

That is one thing that is seriously limiting the missile designs as faster you want to fly, the missile needs special treatments for itself as well, as it will be there hanging through the whole flight time exposed to same heat and other forces as the aircraft itself.

Then when you launch the missile, sure there is few second rocket motor burn and then possible burn to maintain speed, but the missile has just accelerated from long period flight speed to few machs speed.
And now if you happen to fly against sky, it is hot missile flying with cold background.

But the problem really is in the DCS way to simulate missile seekers. They polls every X times a second a change to lock on something in their overall seeker head gimbal limits. Even if the IR seeker would have just 2.5 degree FOV, but if their gimbal is +/- 30 degree, then the missile can lock on a counter measurement in that. That is what makes these things just awful, as you can predict the missile launch and deny the lock by simply dropping CM before the launch.

There was a thread about R-27 and how the missiles catched the CM even when it was kilometers away from the target or way outside the seeker or radar beam etc.

The same thing is with R-73, it just totally forgets the target it has locked if there is something like 15 degree off from the target.

And missiles in DCS are generating heat, so you can lock and launch against them a another IR seeker.
AIM-9X is such that you don't need to worry anything about AIM-120 or AIM-54 as you can defeat those by flying straight and just launch AIM-9X at them and destroy them. The AIM-54 is tricky one as it is so fast that your time window to launch AIM-9X is extremely short and its explosive radius is so big that you can easily get blown anyways.



__________________
i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 1080Ti SLI 11GB, Oculus CV1.
i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 60" HDR 4K.
Fri13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2019, 11:52 AM   #9
Askerov24
Veteran
 
Askerov24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Azerbaijan, Baku
Posts: 3,758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
Spoiler:
Yes. The missile is not cold one.

When you start flying, the air will cause tredenmous friction to everything in the aircraft, including missiles you are have hanging from pylons.

That is one thing that is seriously limiting the missile designs as faster you want to fly, the missile needs special treatments for itself as well, as it will be there hanging through the whole flight time exposed to same heat and other forces as the aircraft itself.

Then when you launch the missile, sure there is few second rocket motor burn and then possible burn to maintain speed, but the missile has just accelerated from long period flight speed to few machs speed.
And now if you happen to fly against sky, it is hot missile flying with cold background.

But the problem really is in the DCS way to simulate missile seekers. They polls every X times a second a change to lock on something in their overall seeker head gimbal limits. Even if the IR seeker would have just 2.5 degree FOV, but if their gimbal is +/- 30 degree, then the missile can lock on a counter measurement in that. That is what makes these things just awful, as you can predict the missile launch and deny the lock by simply dropping CM before the launch.

There was a thread about R-27 and how the missiles catched the CM even when it was kilometers away from the target or way outside the seeker or radar beam etc.

The same thing is with R-73, it just totally forgets the target it has locked if there is something like 15 degree off from the target.

And missiles in DCS are generating heat, so you can lock and launch against them a another IR seeker.
AIM-9X is such that you don't need to worry anything about AIM-120 or AIM-54 as you can defeat those by flying straight and just launch AIM-9X at them and destroy them. The AIM-54 is tricky one as it is so fast that your time window to launch AIM-9X is extremely short and its explosive radius is so big that you can easily get blown anyways.




Links fixed, second one is unavailable
__________________
Acer Aspire E5-571G-713W/Intel® Core™ i7-4510U 2.0-3.1GHz/12 GB DDR3 L Memo/NVIDIA® GeForce® 820M 2 GB/1000 GB HDD
Askerov24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2019, 03:21 PM   #10
Opalias
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 61
Default

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_homing

I'm not sure about the specifics of the R-73, but the most modern systems are much more sophisticated than simply tracking engine exhaust. I don't think that it would be unreasonable, look how well IR works for ground attack, even on shut down vehicles.
Opalias is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:48 PM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.