SD-10 nerfed too much

Well, if you can fly those tests with other missiles we will know more, but right now the missile behavior is completely wrong.

 

Air-to-air combat (unless with guns) is basically a toy at this point.

 

I'll also figure out how to get ACMI and fly some profiles.

 

I'm particularly interested to see if I can get the AIM-120 to over-fly the target again.

 

Here is something I observed the other night: the closer the missile shot, the sooner it runs out of energy. The exact opposite of what I would expect.

 

foxwxl did get the definition of NEZ slightly wrong: NEZ is where the missile carries sufficient energy for max g turns up to missile g limit of +32 or +40 g or whatever the missile is capable of and still intercept the target. A missile would be forced to do this if the bandit turned into the missile or performed a 180 changing from left to right at close range, forcing large trajectory change in the missile.

 

A kill in NEZ is not certain if the defending aircraft is fast and beams the missile causing it to overshoot and lose track.

 

High speed is how I'm able to troll F-14 in MP. ;) Combined with our discoveries here, it's no wonder people think SD-10 "has too much powaaa!".

Negative, Rtr and NEZ may have different definition on different A/C, but in most case, it stands for the range at that point even the target start a 9G turn immediately at launch to the cold and the missile still have energy to intercept. It's no related to missile pulling MAX G.

i dont get it . now i am confused i launched inside NEZ why u said i launched outside NEZ ?

 

sorry can u help me out here what is the range of SD-10 ?

U fired at 27-30nm @25000ft(medium altitude) which is way beyond NEZ, NEZ is around 11-13nm at 25Kft and 6-8nm @ sea level.

I think he's unable to address the problem, and gave a generic reply. Notice how he completely ignored my post (it's cool, foxwxl :) ).

Which post？

I think I've gave the exact reason why all his 4 SD10 missed the target, I think you should review his ACMI first.:smilewink:

U fired at 27-30nm @25000ft(medium altitude) which is way beyond NEZ, NEZ is around 11-13nm at 25Kft and 6-8nm @ sea level.

what ? really ? anyway thx for the information before nerf i would say u are wrong but make sense now so SD-10 is a shorter range missile now good to know so is there is any update soon for some electronic shield it will be quit useful if we are facing Aim-120 family missiles u can take the idea from independence day it will be quit handy

Which post？

I think I've gave the exact reason why all his 4 SD10 missed the target, I think you should review his ACMI first.:smilewink:

I did. The missile physics are ... non-existent. Did you not see my post on page 1 where I posted two screenshots?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4349772&postcount=27

and this next one is just nothing short of pure fiction:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4349782&postcount=28

I’m the first post you linked you say it’s wrong becuase it’s pulling a lot of G, how much G is it pulling throughout that flight?

To me both of them just look like the efficient loft trajectory the missiles have now, that’s where the majority of the AMRAAMs improvement came from for example. The region you highlight in the second is right when the missile is subsonic and has dramatically lower drag

I’m the first post you linked you say it’s wrong becuase it’s pulling a lot of G, how much G is it pulling throughout that flight?

 

To me both of them just look like the efficient loft trajectory the missiles have now, that’s where the majority of the AMRAAMs improvement came from for example. The region you highlight in the second is right when the missile is subsonic and has dramatically lower drag

1) It pulls +3.5 g.

I didn't say it was wrong because it was pulling g; I said it seems immune to effects of maneuvering.

2) The trajectory (guidance) looks good. The issue is energy conservation. The missile is "going downhill" yet bleeding speed at a HIGHER rate than when level.

Subsonic it may have less drag, but it will still die. As it is, it lost about 10 kts in 30 seconds at 550 kts. Really?

Suddenly, when the battery expired, does it drop to the ground. Surely the flight controls would just freeze and it keep coasting?

3.5G is not a lot to bleed the speed of the missile. It will pull up to 38G.

At what part is the second screen shot showing level flight? If you mean time code 4:01:45-40:02:10, it is going 400-600 knots TAS at that time. At that point it’s losing almost 200 knots for 25 seconds, it loses about 1000-1500 feet at that time, and using ISA at that starting point of 20,000 feet and 600 knots as of time 4:01:45 is .97 Mach, ending that 25 second period around 400 knots which is about Mach .65.

Did you see the drag curve Chizh posted in the other thread? The subsonic drag really drops off crazy after it slows past Mach 1 https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4346803&postcount=14

Talk about a nerf of the year season 2020.

Now, it is practically useless on low alt, even if you fire on head on bandit mid way between max and min range. Maybe DLZ on the HUD is wrong...I wonder how it compares to AMRAAM at low alt...

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to fly the F-16 for a while. Too bad, I really liked the JF-17 ;(

I’m pretty sure it’s suppossed to suffer compared to AMRAAM at low altitude, the SD-10 is based on the Sparrow, and the AMRAAM has a thinner body that’s more aerodynamic. However at high altitudes it’s thick body doesn’t drag it down so much, and compared to AMRAAM a higher percent of its mass is fuel. So I think compared to AMRAAM, it is much more optimized for medium to high altitudes

3.5G is not a lot to bleed the speed of the missile. It will pull up to 38G.

 

At what part is the second screen shot showing level flight? If you mean time code 4:01:45-40:02:10, it is going 400-600 knots TAS at that time. At that point it’s losing almost 200 knots for 25 seconds, it loses about 1000-1500 feet at that time, and using ISA at that starting point of 20,000 feet and 600 knots as of time 4:01:45 is .97 Mach, ending that 25 second period around 400 knots which is about Mach .65.

 

Did you see the drag curve Chizh posted in the other thread? The subsonic drag really drops off crazy after it slows past Mach 1 https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4346803&postcount=14

Chizh's own curve of the sim (blue) shows it has too much drag (~65% more drag) below ~Mach 1.6. This is hardly insignificant.

Also, the CFD models went from Cx0 of 0.8 to 0.03. Huh?!

It also fails to explain why the missile falls short the closer it is fired to the target. I have witnessed this several times. I'm not referring to low altitude shots - I mean, if you take the same parameters, except fire at 30 NM and compare to a shot fired at 10 NM or even 8 NM, the missile seems to fire its booster for less time, reach a lower maximum velocity, and fails to reach the target.

Chizh's own curve of the sim (blue) shows it has too much drag (~65% more drag) below ~Mach 1.6. This is hardly insignificant.

 

Also, the CFD models went from Cx0 of 0.8 to 0.03. Huh?!

I noticed that too. The in-game tests he showed us looked nothing like the CFD tests they did. I thought it was pretty weird they used it as an example of "improving" the SD-10. Hopefully in the future ED will handle missiles better. Right now it's pretty disappointing.

what ? really ? anyway thx for the information before nerf i would say u are wrong but make sense now so SD-10 is a shorter range missile now good to know so is there is any update soon for some electronic shield it will be quit useful if we are facing Aim-120 family missiles u can take the idea from independence day it will be quit handy

It's nothing about nerf, it‘s about physics, AIM-120 have even smaller NEZ than SD-10, since SD-10 is slightly larger and has more fuel to burn.

If you a looking for a AAM have 25NM NEZ @25Kft, it chould only be the Meteor(at the time frame of 2010).

I’m pretty sure it’s suppossed to suffer compared to AMRAAM at low altitude, the SD-10 is based on the Sparrow, and the AMRAAM has a thinner body that’s more aerodynamic. However at high altitudes it’s thick body doesn’t drag it down so much, and compared to AMRAAM a higher percent of its mass is fuel. So I think compared to AMRAAM, it is much more optimized for medium to high altitudes

The one based on Sparrow(Aspide) is PL11, which is nothing to do with PL12(export version renamed SD-10).

according to Chizh's graph SD-10 deploys a giant airbrake at M2.0 which explains things. Before it was too fast and you mostly hit targets above M 2.0 so it wasn't that noticable. After nerf you often go below M2.0 at which point missile deploys an even bigger brake chute and drops to the ground

Now ED has gone silent. Also Deka have done the same. Who can we go to to get some things like supposed battery life fixed?

What other weapons will be changed now silently? My guess is that they will also revisit BRM rockets and AK missiles.

Are we simply just going to have to accept that AIM-120C is the best missile in DCS on all aspects and everything that reaches it or surpasses it in ANY aspect is therefore automatically wrong?

They have already ignored and left russian weapons weak, now they have targetted the chinese weapons to give them odd and similar performance oddities which plague the russian missiles.

Since the game is so focused on American aircrafts, we are a minority and cannot compete vocally since nobody seems to care much.

At this point it seems like the best bet for any 3rd Party to do well in DCS is to make NATO jets like Heatblur are doing to gain any proper assitance and support from ED.

I did. The missile physics are ... non-existent. Did you not see my post on page 1 where I posted two screenshots?

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4349772&postcount=27

 

 

and this next one is just nothing short of pure fiction:

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4349782&postcount=28

Sorry, your img does not showed up properly on my side , so I didn't noticed.

----------------

And the analysis that you did is wrong.

Switch to relative time of SD-10 will give you a better idea of what happened at what time.

Select G chart on main axis, Mach chart on side axis, now read that chart again.

U will see the G force suddenly drop to 0G @1:20 after missile launch, which is the time of battery dead, and it is supposed to happen since the missile battery time have reduced to 80secs.

----------------

And for the curve that you "want", it's completely wrong again.

Low altitude have much high air density than high altitude, this means: lots of drag when coming down, espically at high mach.

The missile coming down from loft still decelerating becasue of the drag, but with the exchanging of altitude, the speed bleeding is much lower than none loft shots, but this does not mean diving at that angle can completely overcome the drag from high mach or even accelrate.

If you can't under stand this, try it with your plane. Select a F-15, burner on and speed up to MACH 2, now thrust IDEL and dive with 15deg pitch angle, see if you are accelrating or deccelrating or you can just maintaing the speed.

according to Chizh's graph SD-10 deploys a giant airbrake at M2.0 which explains things. Before it was too fast and you mostly hit targets above M 2.0 so it wasn't that noticable. After nerf you often go below M2.0 at which point missile deploys an even bigger brake chute and drops to the ground

Lower Cx0 at high MACH does not refer to lower actual drag force at high MACH.

Cx0 is a coefficient not the force, for the drag force U have to consider the speed.

(It's the Vsquare that inside the drag equation)

Sorry, your img does not showed up properly on my side , so I didn't noticed.

No problem!

And for the curve that you "want", it's completely wrong again

Where the missile is descending, it is losing more speed in the second example than in the first. This isn't possible (compare the two charts). I'm not expecting it to even maintain speed.

I just discovered that all my flights have been recorded by TacView (I thought I disabled it) so I'm looking for the flight from the other night.

Where the missile is descending, it is losing more speed in the second example than in the first. This isn't possible (compare the two charts). I'm not expecting it to even maintain speed.

Again, U have to consider what the missile is doing at that time, to give U an reasonable explanation.

---------------

Bring up the AOA chart on main axis and Mach chart on side axis, now read it again.

Does the missile losing more speed when its pulling AOA?

Yep, you got the answer.

The target is maneuvering hard(agile F-16 with M1.0+ speed), so you have to combine the altitude exchange with the missile G load/ AOA at the same time.

Two TacView files; dozens of missiles.

The missiles that miss, positively jink away from the target for no good reason. Plenty of energy, and otherwise no reason to miss.

Ignore the file names - I'm flying the JF-17 and F-16 from a land base.

Worth watching the AIM-120s and AIM-7Ms as well - they miss for seemingly no good reason either, also making this weird jink away from target.

There are a couple of times the missiles seem to just completely ignore the target for no reason. At least one SD-10 is still doing Mach 2.5 and just completely ignores the target, and flies right past it as if it isn't there.

Tacview-20200522-190937-DCS-Carrier - Caucus - CVN - Training AA Drones - MP.txt.rar

Tacview-20200522-212409-DCS-Carrier - Caucus - CVN - Training AA Drones - MP.txt.rar

First of all i need to thanks Fox for communicating with us it make me happy cuz i dont see anyone from Deka except him is talking to us .

my Question Fox for u 100% this missile or any missile perform better in higher altitude no argue about that but the lower altitude its seems to be spooky a bit for me sorry cuz from what i saw in so many fights since the last Patch the missile is not dragging enough for example in angel 10 lets create this situation i shoot from angel 10 to a target flying at angel 15 at 8nm separation if we are talking about missile with 2 stage motorize with 0.9 mach speed at launch .. do u think its possible or logic that the target just went cold and drag the missile to its death and we are talking about 8nm separation cuz if i did that to aim-120 family i am dead the missile is losing energy so fast dont mention that from what i saw also detection area is small with less resistance to chaff SD-10 got tricked very easy but so can be honest if u support the missile it will act that stupid but still it can be chaffed more than before ( correct me if i am wrong about this matter cuz maybe i am angry about what happened to SD-10 and i am imagining stuff ) but what i know for sure 100% cuz we train every week in TAW and we do a lot of test i can't launch SD-10 from 30nm at 40,000 ft anymore this option is over

First of all i need to thanks Fox for communicating with us it make me happy cuz i dont see anyone from Deka except him is talking to us .

 

my Question Fox for u 100% this missile or any missile perform better in higher altitude no argue about that but the lower altitude its seems to be spooky a bit for me sorry cuz from what i saw in so many fights since the last Patch the missile is not dragging enough for example in angel 10 lets create this situation i shoot from angel 10 to a target flying at angel 15 at 8nm separation if we are talking about missile with 2 stage motorize with 0.9 mach speed at launch .. do u think its possible or logic that the target just went cold and drag the missile to its death and we are talking about 8nm separation cuz if i did that to aim-120 family i am dead the missile is losing energy so fast dont mention that from what i saw also detection area is small with less resistance to chaff SD-10 got tricked very easy but so can be honest if u support the missile it will act that stupid but still it can be chaffed more than before ( correct me if i am wrong about this matter cuz maybe i am angry about what happened to SD-10 and i am imagining stuff ) but what i know for sure 100% cuz we train every week in TAW and we do a lot of test i can't launch SD-10 from 30nm at 40,000 ft anymore this option is over

Check my TacView files. I'm supporting the missile to impact, and yet it still misses.

You see what I see. It's not our imagination.

An interesting thing I noticed reviewing the files: if the missile is much below Mach 2.0, it seems to straight-up ignore the target in many situations. In others, it makes a weird and sudden jink away from the target.

This seems to apply to all missiles, not only SD-10.

I think I'm blaming missile physics incorrectly (wihtout these ACMI files, it just looked like the missiles were falling short due to lack of energy). For that I eat humble pie. There is something else seriously broken.

Two TacView files; dozens of missiles.

 

The missiles that miss, positively jink away from the target for no good reason. Plenty of energy, and otherwise no reason to miss.

 

Ignore the file names - I'm flying the JF-17 and F-16 from a land base.

 

Worth watching the AIM-120s and AIM-7Ms as well - they miss for seemingly no good reason either, also making this weird jink away from target.

 

There are a couple of times the missiles seem to just completely ignore the target for no reason. At least one SD-10 is still doing Mach 2.5 and just completely ignores the target, and flies right past it as if it isn't there.

Plz identify the exact time of your problem in acmi, I'll review them when available.

Plz identify the exact time of your problem in acmi, I'll review them when available.

Please check all the RADAR missiles that were fired and missed (SD-10, AIM-120, AIM-7M). There is no single example.

In review, all shots were good.

The only genuine example of failure was an PL-5EII shot that I think was below minimum range, and the same for an AIM-9X shot.