Making DCS more accessible to new players.

and the difficulty in finding decent documentation in the one place.

The documentation IS all in one place. In the Flight Manual

 

You don't really know what commands to setup on the HOTAS without flying it,

The HOTAS setup is depicted in the Flight Manual

 

Read the Flight Manual :book:

Great post! Thanks Pac-Man. Much more helpful than just saying "Read the manual" or "The documentation is all in one place" because the best aggregated information comes from a multitude of sources and you've kindly put that together in one place...

Edited July 12, 2020 by symowallo

Well, to ''find info'' is not that hard. Go to Google, click the large rectangular space in center, type question, browse results. That's how everybody building aggregates and everything else is doing it. A certain amount of initiative is unavoidable...

 

As for knowing what commands to assign, you're correct, you don't know until you start flying it. That's why you should start with the basics. Learn to start and fly the aircraft. Gradually work in weapons and countermeasures, TPODs etc. As you learn each component, you'll know which ones you need to use in combat.

 

That's how I learned the Harrier, the first really complex aircraft I got into and learned a lot of the details of. At a glance it's all just noise. A certain amount of experience is required to learn what's critical and what isn't. That's why real pilots train for months/years before being combat rated. I don't see why these virtual fighter jockies think being expected to read and put a little bit of effort for a few hours is out of the ordinary.

 

The aircraft are complex.

How you go about learning them is not.

 

The simple methodology I learned in my experience with the Harrier had me learning most the Ka-50s systems in a few hours, and figuring what mattered and what didn't within a few days. That's really all your facing, and should be expected in a sim focused on studying, thus being called a ''study sim''.

Edited July 12, 2020 by zhukov032186

See, those last 2 replies show exactly what the problem is. One said "Read the manual", whilst the other said in a condescending manner "Go to the search box in Google and type what you're looking for". Well, gosh, thanks, because I had no idea how to use Google!

 

There's your problem with the community, right there. Luckily I've not had to rely on such condescending and "Captain Obvious" type of advice and help to get back up and running again.

 

On the other hand, another experienced simmer basically said "Sure, here's some info I put together, here's a collection of info all in the one place that'll help you get up and running as quickly as possible whilst you learn the theory in the background" - that was super helpful and most appreciated.

On the other hand, another experienced simmer basically said "Sure, here's some info I put together, here's a collection of info all in the one place that'll help you get up and running as quickly as possible whilst you learn the theory in the background" - that was super helpful and most appreciated.

Pac-Man/OverKill's great job is much appreciated - no doubt - in fact anyone's training videos or tutorials are appreciated. To me, however, it seem to be massive waste of time to watch 27 minute video in which maybe I will find something useful or maybe a resolution to my problem. I prefer to use search on the forum or the web and get my answer in less than a minute usually. Beginner tutorial is like guessing what may be hard for a new user while every one of them is different, has different needs and has different past experiences. If you have any problem/question just ask - don't try to judge the community in your first posts.

See, those last 2 replies show exactly what the problem is. One said "Read the manual",

Sorry for sounding like a broken record but this is indeed what any new player must do. For some reason people seem to have an aversion to this which is why you keep seeing the same response. The manual is just simply your best and quickest reference for anything. More than just read it you need to study it. There’s a difference. Reading is passive, studying is active.

Yes there are a host of other resources out there, interactive training missions in the game, YouTube videos etc and each has advantages and disadvantages. Studying means using all these in conjunction. Most importantly you need to do this in an active method, not just passive watching or reading. For example, take the manual, go to a specific section and while in the game, in the cockpit go through what’s explained. Don’t just try to just read and figure you will retain it.

Then watch a video. Then do it again on your own, then without the manual. With repetition.

Many of us are old enough that we forgot how to study like we did in school but it’s a process we need to understand again. With a good process you can understand one of these aircraft in a few weeks.

Exactly, Sharpe. There's no magic workaround. You pick a topic, whether startup, navigation, dumb rockets whatever, read the manual, watch a video, go ingame, do it yourself. Some folks want a shortcut or think they can bypass the basics, or somehow get somebody else to do it for them.

 

And you're exactly right about the difference between reading and studying. They don't tell you about algebra for four years then expect you to remember it all and solve equations. They do small tests constantly along the way, utilising practically what you're learning so you actually understand it and can put it to use.

 

If ''rtfm'' isn't working it's the ''study method'' that's the issue, not the information source.

See, those last 2 replies show exactly what the problem is. One said "Read the manual", whilst the other said in a condescending manner "Go to the search box in Google and type what you're looking for". Well, gosh, thanks, because I had no idea how to use Google!

 

There's your problem with the community, right there. Luckily I've not had to rely on such condescending and "Captain Obvious" type of advice and help to get back up and running again.

 

On the other hand, another experienced simmer basically said "Sure, here's some info I put together, here's a collection of info all in the one place that'll help you get up and running as quickly as possible whilst you learn the theory in the background" - that was super helpful and most appreciated.

 

I don't think they were trying to be condescending.

 

There are plenty of resources for getting going in DCS, and these will work for most. But as draconus says, there's no way to account for the gaps in knowledge that every single new player is going to have.

 

If you ask a general question like "how do I start this plane" you ARE likely to be told to RTFM. That's not because people are being rude/unhelpful, it's because that really is the fastest/easiest way to reference all the required steps. If you have something specific that you don't understand, that's the kind of question that can be asked on this forum, because someone can provide you with a specific answer.

Just stumbled up on some DCS videos that I think are a perfect demonstration of my point.

 

All you guys saying we should just suck it up, its realism, read the manual, its what real pilots do.. then you get a real F18/F16 pilot who plays DCS and what does he do when he flies a new plane?

 

 

He doesnt read the manual. He cant be bothered to. Doesnt even look at it. He just tries to figure stuff out, expects the game to help him set up / figure out the control mappings, relies on a "buddy" and twitch to tell him the things he needs to know when he needs them, he just wants to jump in and have some fun, do some training missions and learn as he goes. How dare he!

 

I guess the game is not for him either. Too realistic for actual fighter pilots?

I guess the game is not for him either. Too realistic for actual fighter pilots?

How in the world you would expect a real pilot to know how to set up controls in the simulator or bind a keys? It's not even a home pit to make him any comfortable or lifelike. Apart from that I see him doing great.

How do you reckon? Did he read the DCS manual for it? Not that I can tell. But unlike the other modules he tried, he has actually flown the T38 extensively, so he knows the plane and its systems, he doesnt need a manual. Or training missions. Or a "buddy". Or twitch. He is actually giving a tutorial in that video.

How in the world you would expect a real pilot to know how to set up controls in the simulator or bind a keys?

 

I dont! Nor do I expect him to figure out all weapon and radar systems in planes he has never flown IRL. The point is how he wants to learn those. Same as me, and frankly, most people.

 

Apart from that I see him doing great.

 

He can fly, that is apparent in quite a few things he does. But his flying of the tomcat is horrible and makes even me look good, so Im happy with that. Thats of course, entirely not the point.

I started this thread precisely to discuss how we can provide new pilots with better training wheels, as I would like to see more people eventually learn to ride this bike. Its telling you consistently oppose any ideas that might help them. Just because you learned it by riding your unicycle of a mountain without a helmet doesnt mean everyone should.

I am a relative newbie in DCS and serious flight sims, although I dabbled with more gamey flight sims in the 90s.

 

However I am a long term sim racer (30 years) and had a career in IT. So I know my way around more serious simulations, PCs & tech stuff.

 

My observation from all those years is there is always a great desire amongst hardcore sim fans for it to become less niche and for the masses to "get it" just like we have. That there should be some magic bullet to get people in and hooked just like they do Fifa or Counter Strike.

 

In my view hardcore sims are niche for good reasons, they require a lot of time, effort and enthusiasm for a genre that simply is in short supply and no amount of training wheels is going to change that. Even if those hooked on Counter Strike end up devoting zillions of hours to get good, these games will always be infinitely more accessible.

 

People who have the desire to master the cockpit of an F14 aren't going to stumble into it by chance one evening looking for games to download. It takes a serious investment of time and a certain attitude.

 

Personally I play DCS in a very casual way, I enjoy flying different planes, managing the basic controls and way off any level of expertise in any of them. Though I can start up, taxi, take off and land in a Spitfire which has taken a bunch of practice!

 

For me as an experienced PC user but novice flight simmer I have found it plenty accessible but I don't mind faffing around with binding multiple controls, fiddling with various PC utilities and investing a bunch of time getting it all working as I like. I am not sure I am a typical gamer but probably not that untypical for those that like serious simulations.

 

I simply think expectations that hardcore sims like DCS and others should attract swathes of new users and the onus lies with the developers for failing to make this happen (the same debate seems to be on every sim developer forum I have seen) just seems unachievable IMHO.

My observation from all those years is there is always a great desire amongst hardcore sim fans for it to become less niche and for the masses to "get it" just like we have.

 

The point is not to turn DCS mainstream. You are not going to attract people who are not interested in realistic flight sims. My point is that are many little things we can do to prevent so many people giving up or not even trying despite being interested in flight sims, many of whom even learned to operate complex avionics in civilian sims, or mastered more complex flight models in WW1/2 sims, who still give up on DCS because they do not enjoy reading thick books before having any fun at all.

 

Personally I play DCS in a very casual way, I enjoy flying different planes, managing the basic controls and way off any level of expertise in any of them. Though I can start up, taxi, take off and land in a Spitfire which has taken a bunch of practice!

 

You seem to be undermining your own argument here. You are not "hardcore", yet you seem to enjoy casually flying planes in DCS. Good for you. But most sim pilots have enough stick time that taking off and landing DCS planes is really not much of a challenge. Thats not the part they will enjoy most, or that they need help with. Thats one of the few things they can learn by doing, if it needs learning at all.

 

Imagine I would be interested in sim racing. Im pretty sure it would take me forever to master, but I wouldnt expect it to take me more than 20 minutes before Im actually set up and driving and racing on some track. Ill be having fun. Ill be crashing and dead last in any race, for sure, but Ill probably have some newbie aids like auto shifting or steering aids and the game will probably provide enough in game help or training that I can have a challenge and fun and learn by doing, without people telling me I need to read 500 page manuals first. I may need some reading, but only to get better, not to get started. I also probably dont have to fork over 60 euro per car without even having a clue yet if I prefer dirt racing or rally cross or nascar or F1. And if I already decided my goal is ultimately F1, I probably dont need to buy a Hyundai first to learn the basics, and then buy a porsche 911 and then something faster. Its probably wise to learn in that order, but I wouldnt have to buy all those cars or end up as a complete noob in a F1 car that I cant master. Am I wrong?

Edited July 14, 2020 by Vertigo72

All you guys saying we should just suck it up, its realism, read the manual, its what real pilots do..

The real pilot in this video is playing a game. DCS is a game, you’re free to screw up as much as you like and be lost trying to do simple stuff. In Robin Olds’ “Fighter Pilot” he has a few accounts of just strapping himself into a new aircraft without any instruction. But it was wartime or he was also quite a Maverick. Because a real pilot with lots of experience can do this in DCS doesn’t mean you can. If you’re looking for a personal instructor to hold your hand and show you everything in DCS you probably won’t find one. You’re on your own here. That’s just how it is. It’s a game. In real life people can have instructors and sure there are training servers in DCS. But students are still expected to do homework. There are a lot of resources available for DCS, the manual being the most important. Along with interactive training missions, plenty of YouTube channels and this forum. But you seem to lack the patience or aptitude for any of it.

 

My point is that are many little things we can do to prevent so many people giving up or not even trying despite being interested in flight sims,

How do you know if so many people are giving up or not trying? You’re the only person I’ve seen here complaining so much.

Edited July 14, 2020 by SharpeXB

Have you still not figured out Im not asking this for *me* ? Ive mastered the F14 quite some time ago, or at least I understand how everything works. Im not asking for help, Im telling you why you see so few newbies on this forum, and suggesting some things can be done about it before ED have to close shop. Because only then will you care, but then it will be too late.

You seem to be undermining your own argument here. You are not "hardcore", yet you seem to enjoy casually flying planes in DCS. Good for you. But most sim pilots have enough stick time that taking off and landing DCS planes is really not much of a challenge. Thats not the part they will enjoy most, or that they need help with. Thats one of the few things they can learn by doing, if it needs learning at all.

To prefer sims like DCS to other more accessible games that you can jump in and fly with a mouse probably does qualify as hardcore, certainly being prepared to spend significant time mapping buttons to controls and investing in gear would do in my view. Going the next level and investing the kind of time to master a complex modern combat aircraft's systems is another level for sure and becoming proficient in multiplayer against world class flight combat sim pilots is another. My point is to get beyond the first level requires a level of self motivation that I would expect the player to be prepared to do some work and there are tools like Chuck's guides that are easily found to help get started.

Imagine I would be interested in sim racing. Im pretty sure it would take me forever to master, but I wouldnt expect it to take me more than 20 minutes before Im actually set up and driving and racing on some track. Ill be having fun. Ill be crashing and dead last in any race, for sure, but Ill probably have some newbie aids like auto shifting or steering aids and the game will probably provide enough in game help or training that I can have a challenge and fun and learn by doing, without people telling me I need to read 500 page manuals first. I may need some reading, but only to get better, not to get started. I also probably dont have to fork over 60 euro per car without even having a clue yet if I prefer dirt racing or rally cross or nascar or F1. And if I already decided my goal is ultimately F1, I probably dont need to buy a Hyundai first to learn the basics, and then buy a porsche 911 and then something faster. Its probably wise to learn in that order, but I wouldnt have to buy all those cars or end up as a complete noob in a F1 car that I cant master. Am I wrong?

If iRacing is the equivalent of DCS in the sim racing world then you absolutely will have to progress through the ranks and you won't have much fun crashing out other rookies. To be in any way competitive you will need to learn the complex systems on the F1 car, get to understand how to use telemetry, work on setups for each track and weather conditions. Now you could just take the car out on track for a fun drive but we can do just the same with an F14 in DCS.

 

If you want to be competitive in multiplayer then yes you need to learn a lot of stuff and practice lots but sim racing is no different. Now iRacing is addressing some of this by adding AI but DCS has had that from the outset.

Imagine I would be interested in sim racing. Im pretty sure it would take me forever to master, but I wouldnt expect it to take me more than 20 minutes before Im actually set up and driving and racing on some track.

I think we all know that cars aren’t as complex to operate as aircraft. But if you think AAR is difficult, racing is harder! :joystick:

@Vertigo72 - Thanks for reminding me about the Mover example. This is a great supporting argument for needing to put time into something complex. The unfortunate thing is you think it's DCS's fault and not Mover's fault.

 

Movers answer was to get someone else to keybind it for him. He's very clearly, not that into DCS, but this is where quite a lot of his audience is at and he wants the audience.

 

His frustration on controls is exactly supporting the same argument; that you have to spend your own time, not someone else's, in learning something.

Have you still not figured out Im not asking this for *me* ? Ive mastered the F14 quite some time ago, or at least I understand how everything works. Im not asking for help, Im telling you why you see so few newbies on this forum, and suggesting some things can be done about it before ED have to close shop. Because only then will you care, but then it will be too late.

DCS has plenty of resources to help people learn the modules. More so than other full fidelity flight sims. This is certainly a niche but ED isn’t going to “close shop” because some new players just lack patience or aptitude.

Have you still not figured out Im not asking this for *me* ? Ive mastered the F14 quite some time ago, or at least I understand how everything works. Im not asking for help, Im telling you why you see so few newbies on this forum, and suggesting some things can be done about it before ED have to close shop. Because only then will you care, but then it will be too late.

 

Can you catch me up with the summary of all the things you have suggested to save Eagle Dynamic' business? I can't have read everything and clearly missed that (or those).

If you want to be competitive

 

Thats not the point. If you can be competitive in any sim or game in 20 minutes, or even 20 days, how could it possibly be an interesting game?

 

Ive been flying a soaring simulator on and off for about 15 years and I have a similar amount of RL soaring experience, and Im still only barely competitive, and by that I mean I may typically be top 10 in a 50 player race. I will almost never win. Newbies have zero chance of winning, or even be remotely competitive without 100s if not 1000s of hours of practice and experience, even studying at least some theory. But they can still have fun every step of the way, just learning how to fly, then staying up, catching ridge lift or wave, trying to complete a task, or at least getting as far as they can and learning as they go. That is what matters and what keeps new players hooked: achievable challenges, learning by doing and having fun as you ride that learning curve. Then it doesnt matter how high that curve goes, or how long it takes to master. If anything, the more there is to learn the better.

The unfortunate thing is you think it's DCS's fault and not Mover's fault.

 

Yeah, blame the customer! Always a genius business strategy. They have the wrong attitude. Maybe ED should pick its customers more carefully? Maybe an entry exam before you are allowed to pay and play? I mean, you cant just let any real life F18 pilot play your game, some are clearly unworthy.

That is what matters and what keeps new players hooked: achievable challenges, learning by doing and having fun as you ride that learning curve. Then it doesnt matter how high that curve goes, or how long it takes to master. If anything, the more there is to learn the better.

And DCS doesn’t offer this? “the more there is to learn the better”. I would say based upon that, DCS must be the most appealing game in the world!

And DCS doesn’t offer this? “the more there is to learn the better”. I would say based upon that, DCS must be the most appealing game in the world!

 

Of course DCS offers that. In spades! Where it lacks is helping people get started, or put them in a position where they know enough so that they can learn by doing.

 

And you can say 100x the info is out there, spread across various manuals and forums and youtube videos, so its up to them to go find it, but that is how you lose customers, by expecting them to do research before they have even begun having fun and climbing that learning curve. By blaming them for having the the wrong attitude.