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Coordinated Flight/Ball


backstab

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I have 200 hours on the Huey and I know something of helicopters. I find myself in cruise (100-120kts) with ZERO WIND and holding 3/4 left rudder to keep the inclinometer ball on the turn and bank centred and track a constant magnetic track over the ground. The heli is yawed 20-25 degrees left of the track over the ground. During this time the helicopter is wings level on the attitude indicator.

 

I think this amount of angle difference between heading and track is way too much.It is as though I am flying in a 30 knot crosswind. I do understand torque and the anti torque tail rotor. I understand that the tail rotor pushes the entire helicopter to the left and this requires a right skid low hover to hold position in zero wind. I just think they got it wrong.

 

I would have thought that in fast forward flight the translational lift gained would actually lessen the torques effect. In the same way that in a fixed wing plane loses its induced drag the faster it goes lessening the vorticies it creates. There are advantages to moving a flying craft faster through the air. Also I would have thought that fast forward flight would allow the fuselage and and yaw stabilizing features (the body and fin) to assist in tracking. I would have thought that less rudder (tail rotor) input would be required the faster you flew.

 

Any Huey pilots out there can comment.

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  • 1 month later...

I can confirm your observations. In level flight at 80 - 90 knots the real UH-1 actually needs some right pedal, not left pedal.

 

Alexander “PilotMi8” Podvoyskiy himself experienced that when he had the opportunity to fly a real Huey at the Dillon Aero company in Arizona.

 

In the past the DCS Huey had always been neutral in the pedals at level flight (without wind effects).

Which I could live with. But I am fairly sure that in the past the trimball at least stayed in the centre position in such a flight situation.

 

At the moment complying with the trimball at level flight leads to a crab flight.

ED really should look into the trimball behavior - there is something wrong with it.

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Concur, I always found this a bit off myself.

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The Mi-8 variometer can't track rapid VS changes because it's slow. Use the Doppler flight indicator instead. And yes, it's like that IRL too, so nothing flawed or incorrect there.


Edited by msalama

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  • ED Team
I can confirm your observations. In level flight at 80 - 90 knots the real UH-1 actually needs some right pedal, not left pedal.

 

Alexander “PilotMi8” Podvoyskiy himself experienced that when he had the opportunity to fly a real Huey at the Dillon Aero company in Arizona.

 

In the past the DCS Huey had always been neutral in the pedals at level flight (without wind effects).

Which I could live with. But I am fairly sure that in the past the trimball at least stayed in the centre position in such a flight situation.

 

At the moment complying with the trimball at level flight leads to a crab flight.

ED really should look into the trimball behavior - there is something wrong with it.

thanx, I will see what is there at the moment

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  • 1 month later...

 

This is true, but not nearly as prevalent as it is in the DCS Huey.

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  • 7 months later...

I've had the same thoughts on the ball being a bit off but also noticed another behaviour which may or may not be connected to the same issue.

 

When trimmed out in level cruise flight the helicopter pendulums left and right and yaws slightly left and right without any control inputs at all, totally hands off. It's like there's an artificial instability built in which I personally believe also shows itself in the hover.

 

The DCS Huey is quite a handful in the hover and requires a lot more constant correction input than I would imagine is needed IRL. I have never flown a real Huey but I do have a PPL(H) and fly R22's. Very different heli I know but if anything the R22 should be twitchier in hover.

 

I just feel that an artificial instability has been introduced so that people don't complain that it's too "arcadey". I feel there's a bit too much control lag and it should be a bit easier to hover than it is.

 

That's just my opinion and I could be wrong but there it is.

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Havent played with the DCS Huey for a while. Don't know if they made any bigger changes lately but earlier it felt quite ok for a game. That said, its quite a lot that isn’t like a real Huey/helo.

 

For real helos:

The pedal position vs the airspeed is dependent on the gross weight. There is a big difference if only one pilot, low on fuel and no load vs at maximum take off weight. At higher weight you need more torque for tha same speed=more left pedal.

The outer air temperature also make a difference, higher temps make the need for more rotor blade angle -> more rotor drag -> more torque= more left pedal.

 

The tail fin is inclined to make lift(sideways) to release the tail rotor load at higher speeds. Normally, in most helos the pedals are somewhere around the middle at normal cruise speeds.

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[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

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Just tried some flights.

 

With a gross weight of 7500 Pounds and 8500 Pounds and flying something close to normal cruise IRL, 90-105 knots, pedal released/centered it did fly straight. It showed the ball around half ball(a Little less than half actually) to the left. I tested this by landing and lining up on a raunway, checked the direction gyro and then flew along the same runway, and both use the Visual cue inside and external view.

 

So the Huey itself flies straight and nice with pedals around centered at normal cruise, at least for me.

 

The ball doesnt center, its wrong. For the tests above with the ball centered it flew aorund 5 degree of, i.e nose 5 degrees to the left.

 

 

At higher speeds/Power the ball goes away more, despite having the Huey flying straight and level. The ball doesnt work like it should in other means also so it should get a fix.

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

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  • 8 months later...
Just tried some flights.

 

With a gross weight of 7500 Pounds and 8500 Pounds and flying something close to normal cruise IRL, 90-105 knots, pedal released/centered it did fly straight. It showed the ball around half ball(a Little less than half actually) to the left. I tested this by landing and lining up on a raunway, checked the direction gyro and then flew along the same runway, and both use the Visual cue inside and external view.

 

So the Huey itself flies straight and nice with pedals around centered at normal cruise, at least for me.

 

The ball doesnt center, its wrong. For the tests above with the ball centered it flew aorund 5 degree of, i.e nose 5 degrees to the left.

 

 

At higher speeds/Power the ball goes away more, despite having the Huey flying straight and level. The ball doesnt work like it should in other means also so it should get a fix.

 

And I thought it was me. Trying to fly ball in the Huey always puts me at the wrong attitude. Now I can just ignore it.

 

Thanks for that, it's very much appreciated.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Would be great if we could get an official response on this.

 

My left leg starts hurting after flying for an hour trying to keep the ball centered. :)

I guess I will just ignore it for now then and keep the pedals centered.

 

Mud

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  • 10 months later...

Is it possible to implement right pedal need in high speeds like over 70 knots?. I have read it also on the review here and have cross referenced other sources that suggest this. Currently the chopper doesnt display such a characteristic.

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Obsessed with FM's

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  • 2 weeks later...

My explanation to this is the following.  As the heli's speed increases the wash from the main prop is going more and more backwards, making the empennage and the tail rotor much more effective thus requiring right pedal to reduce tail rotor thrust. Currently this is not happening on dcs... 

 

Obsessed with FM's

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I have been asked to make a new post stating what I think is wrong with the Huey FM so it can be investigated. Above is my post in which I have already mention this . The Huey currently displays an incorrect neutral antitorgue pedal position characteristic in speeds greater than 80 knots. In reality there is a need for right pedal in order to fly the ball centered (in normal mild wind conditions). This can also be seen on the video I provided on the first post and is also stated on a report of your own ED staff by a test flight conducted in Arizona. This discrepancy has also been stated previously in the forum by another user claiming to be real UH-1H operator here (below). I would really like to see this issue get some attention by the team and maybe addressed properly with the teams, surely greater expertise and perhaps utilize the ability to verify with real pilots. 

 

I am not expert but I believe the current FM doesn't take account of the main rotor wash shifting rearwards when increasing flight speed, resulting in greater empennage efficiency that would justify the correct response.

 

 

 


Edited by fapador
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Obsessed with FM's

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TM 55-1520-242-MTF

Maintenance Test Flight Manual

 

--------------------

 

IN-FLIGHT CHECKS 


* 1. Control rigging - Check:
     a. FORCE TRIM - ON
     b. Increase airspeed - 90
         (Nose mounted), 100 (Roof
         mounted) using 30 PSI
         torque, needle ball centered.


                      WARNING
Lack of proper pedal position is cause to ter-
minate flight. Adjustments are to be made
prior to proceeding with the test flight.


     c. Note cyclic nearly center;
         force trim holds controls in
         position.
     d. Right pedal should be 1.0 to
         2.0'' forward of left.
     e. The collective should not
         creep up or down.
     f. FORCE TRIM - OFF.

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