Degraded Su-27 aerodynamic lift - Page 31 - ED Forums
 


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Old 07-14-2018, 11:48 AM   #301
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Guy that started this post gave you some pretty good charts and conclusions and invested his time but shouldnt, where is the EDs proof he's wrong? Where's the certificate of FM validity? Cant fool the numbers.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:13 PM   #302
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I also truly believe that IT IS ED's obligation to show us HOW they came up with the FM and not the other way around. If they can show the hard evidence for their FM then all these useless discussions on the forum will come to an end.

The guy's in this thread are just backseat armchair engineers that are always nitpicking on everything that's not 100/100 modeled. The work that go's into making these fight models are massive. Are they 100/100 perfect simulation? I dare say no...Are they the best out there for the home PC, outside of the military and their hardware? I dare say a big yes....

Below is the best post on the forum that simply explains what these guy's do, or you can also download the High Fidelity Flight Dynamics and Tech/Academic Initial Demonstration to get some idea. The Data source was from NASA technical papers, the engine model are extrapolated equations from the NASA manned sim. Read more here

Another good read is the Heatblur Simulations AIM-54 Phoenix CFD Whitepaper. Heatblur hired guy's to do CFD Simulation on the missile to gain enough info on the flight characteristics and performance for the sim, read the document, it's crazy modeling and data mining for a missile for a sim.

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I am neither an FM programmer nor an aerodynamics specialist in any way, but I believe blade element theory is not only perfectly applicable to ED's AFM, but is in fact only one aspect of it. In other words what we describe as AFM includes blade element theory, but also other modeling approaches that combine to make the entire aircraft model.

We break the aircraft down into sub-elements (including breaking the rotor blades/propeller blades/wings/stabilizers into sub-elements like the root, mid-section, trailing edge) and apply physics equations to each element in real time to determine the forces and moments acting on it at any point in time. These are summed together to produce the total velocity of the aircraft. In addition each element affects other elements of the model, such as the wings affecting the airflow over the tail section, or the prop wash effects on the fuselage of the P-51, etc.



Where I would say ED's AFM takes it a step further is in applying the same principles to primary aircraft systems modeling, like the engine, fuel, hydraulics, and most recently electrics. Obviously you can increase the level of depth in real-time modeling endlessly and the limit only depends on time available and computing power, but generally I would say that our AFM models probably feature the deepest and widest real time (what we call "honest") calculated factors of such aircraft systems you would see on the PC, at least at the consumer level. To give you an idea, when you run the starter in the P-51D and see the landing gear warning lights dim, it isn't because there is a specific script for this to happen, but because you're actually pulling virtual juice from the virtual battery that is virtually running in real time and supplying the instruments and systems with virtual power through a virtual bus, to which the lights are connected. The same applies to the engine model with its main elements like cylinder pressures, temperature and lubrication factors, the various mechanical components like the RPM governor, supercharger, radiator doors, etc. And the same applies to other mechanical systems like the flight controls and their operation between the cockpit and the control surfaces, the trim mechanisms, the landing gear. Again, it's ultimately a model and cannot be completely correct or account for every physical phenomenon, but we try to go as deep as possible in terms of real-time modeling and as wide as possible in terms of covering physical effects within reasonable limits of time and money. Otherwise we could work on any one model endlessly, which is probably what some of the devs would like to do.

To be short, AFM is built from the ground up. We don't build behaviors to match desired performance. We build a physical model as correctly as possible and then check it against known performance characteristics. If the model is built correctly, it should match the performance characteristics closely by itself without requiring any "top-down" scripting to do so. Of course some miscalculations or oversimplifications or just plain errors happen along the way, so testing, tuning and adjusting is always necessary.

Here's a description of the Ka-50 model:
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.co...k_shark/#22728

Similar for the Huey:
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.co...s/huey/#340494

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Originally Posted by jackmckay View Post
300 posts.. I'm out. Times up. Got a better things to do.. Cya.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:30 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by amazingme View Post
I also truly believe that IT IS ED's obligation to show us HOW they came up with the FM and not the other way around. If they can show the hard evidence for their FM then all these useless discussions on the forum will come to an end.

No, it actually isn't, especially considering some of the stuff they have access to is privileged information from the manufacturers. How about not act like drama queens every time you think you find something you consider a flaw? Too adult? You guys aren't consumer advocates arguing about a virtual aircraft's flight model, and in the case of the insinuations of lawsuits, you're just virtue signaling fools. Plain and simple.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:38 PM   #304
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You guys know there is a ignore list on your user cp? You can put their name there and not deal with undesirable people behavior. I use it all the time and sure makes the forums more enjoyable.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:41 PM   #305
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But you miss all the fun.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:48 PM   #306
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that claim right or wrong should be customers?
If you claim it's wrong, the burden of proof is on you. This is how it has been since the dawn of time in any sane society. Not ED's problem if you fail to understand this.

Also, fraud? Are you stoned or something?
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:07 PM   #307
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They should have closed this thread a long time ago when Maverick was proved to be wrong.

This thread is pointless, a waste of time.

See how much time ED devs spend looking here. Except they don't because the ones saying there is something wrong can't prove their point and they try to use videos, "thinks" and "guesses" instead of proper documentation like other people on this forum do.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:52 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Vitormouraa View Post
They should have closed this thread a long time ago when Maverick was proved to be wrong.

This thread is pointless, a waste of time.

See how much time ED devs spend looking here. Except they don't because the ones saying there is something wrong can't prove their point and they try to use videos, "thinks" and "guesses" instead of proper documentation like other people on this forum do.
Wrong! ED can't prove their point with real aerodynamic data on the real 3D models with corrected wind tunnel data ((the uncorrected wind tunnel data is far from being realistic) and I know for sure what's wrong from right because I'm an aerodynamicist and at the moment I can only tell the Su-27's and other plane's FMs should still be considered a WIP, simply because some aerodynamic coefficients aren't correct and also because no airplane completely simulates the flaps and slats effects (although another thread is has been raised just for that topic).

If you say ED should've closed this thread, then that means ED should also close their relationship with those who buy their product, thus their image will start to go down. If they want to follow your words, then they will be the ones to lose, not those who can see for themselves what flight simulator it's worth it or not, because day after day people start looking more for simulation realism rather than graphics, and I hate to think this is some sort of arcade flight simulator, cause I'd regret every cent that I've spent in it!
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:09 PM   #309
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ED doesn't have to prove anything to you. They made the sim and its out there. You are the one saying it's wrong therefore you have to prove it. Not ED.

ED said it's correct, so you have to prove that they aren't.
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:15 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by jackmckay View Post
Thats attitude paradigm actually. And players should take someone project being 'simulator' just by claimng so in a title and the actual ones to proove is that claim right or wrong should be customers? Things dont work that way esac. You know the one saying 'customers are allways right'? That's the RL ethic. British ED should stick to that.

Very well said, yet although, we the buyers of ED products for our fun or to see how well the simulator is (my primary interest) are not necessarily have to be "always right" and there is where things should be put on the table, open the books, draw charts and with a professional attitude start proving right from wrong again and again, but no..., the attitude that we see from ED is...:


"I don't think that ED has to offer any explanation for how it's being simulated, I don't think that ED should give you an answer..., I don't think that ED should even look at you...! From this picture, I'd rather realize that that ED has become some sort of god that eats his customers patience by trying to foul with their minds and won't give credible answers to anyone, no matter what.


As a metaphor: "ED rejects the reality and substitutes it's own..."! Well, at least that's the way we see it more and more!
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