Degraded Su-27 aerodynamic lift - Page 16 - ED Forums
 


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Old 02-25-2018, 07:49 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick Su-35S View Post
At the moment, I do not trust that the way it was tuned reflects the same values found by NASA as I do not believe that what I see in DCS reflects the real plane, sorry!
The only thing I have left to say is prove it or go home

PS: You do realize F-16's are riding a limiter, right? It can easily have a lower AoA peak than an eagle, and guaranteed to have a lower g peak. Also, please reference test loads that there are performance charts for. The charts for F-15C with -220s start at 37000lbs gross weight clean configuration IIRC.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:59 PM   #152
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So far, this remains the truth:
https://youtu.be/DMEdbwS4Fhs?t=1389

This is one of the reasons I disagree that the real F-15 proves better turning performance (clean or guns only weight) than the Su-27 and why I don't trust DCS, anymore!
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:00 PM   #153
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Actually this 'truth' is disputed even on the Russian forums. The USAF denies such a fight was ever arranged or authorized - they even deny it happened.

Today, you can see them dogfighting over nevada, sicne USAF owns a couple of flankers now, and they don't do quite so indisputably well as you want them to. But hey, maybe those top-notch USAF pilots just suck?

Don't care why you disagree or why you distrust - prove it's wrong or go just stop. Enough of this waste of time.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:56 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick Su-35S View Post
So far, this remains the truth:
https://youtu.be/DMEdbwS4Fhs?t=1389

This is one of the reasons I disagree that the real F-15 proves better turning performance (clean or guns only weight) than the Su-27 and why I don't trust DCS, anymore!
Those are stories, not data and are entirely subjective. You don’t believe the Cl data from NASA. I provide that data. You change the subject again. Forever ‘moving the goal posts’.
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Old 02-26-2018, 01:58 AM   #155
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I have to say I got very confused about the leading edge devices after watching this thread so many times, one says one thing, and the other says it's wrong

Here are two examples from a book I have called "Aerodynamics for naval aviators".
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Old 02-26-2018, 05:52 AM   #156
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@GGTharos So did they (USAF) broke some wings on Ukrainian Flankers there over Nevada since they are pushing them to the limit?

Having slats was proved to be positive in increasing critical AoA since WW2. If Eagle doesn't have them and Flanker does, who gets better STR? Eagle is energy fighter and flanker close combat one. That's the whole story. Who thinks that plane flies by mind strength instead of aerodynamics, is wrong. One thing which is wrong from beginning regarding ED module policy and that, in my opinion, having multiple flight models for each airframe. That is completely wrong approach from aspect of flight physics since one module is entangled by mystical forces and other is not or just wraith-ed. What is the purpose of "simplified" in game settings if its made on some modules by default. Cockpit interaction level, sure, but flight dynamics, nah.

So we can't take anything serious from ED if we have different external FMs.
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Old 02-26-2018, 06:53 PM   #157
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Quote:
What is the purpose of "simplified" in game settings if its made on some modules by default.
....
So we can't take anything serious from ED if we have different external FMs.
This is just a ridiculous, deliberately provocative statement that has no grounding in fact.
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Old 02-26-2018, 07:01 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by jackmckay View Post
@GGTharos So did they (USAF) broke some wings on Ukrainian Flankers there over Nevada since they are pushing them to the limit?
Unlike complaining virtual pilots, those guys know how to fly - they won't be hauling 12g turns at low fuel loads, or 9g turns with a full tank of gas.

They can max-perform the aircraft no problem, and so can any one in-game. And people do.

Quote:
Eagle is energy fighter and flanker close combat one. That's the whole story.
No it isn't, it's just BS from people who don't understand angles/radius tactics vs energy tactics, and sit there thinking that an 'angle/radius fighter' can't be out-rated and and 'energy fighter' can't be out-energied.

If a flanker merges at 400kts and an eagle at 250, who's the energy fighter now?

Quote:
One thing which is wrong from beginning regarding ED module policy and that, in my opinion, having multiple flight models for each airframe. That is completely wrong approach from aspect of flight physics since one module is entangled by mystical forces and other is not or just wraith-ed.
That's ridiculous. You don't need to care what's under the hood and who made it, all you care about is input and output.
Also, what's this 'multiple flight models for each airframe' thing? They have one flight model ... each. Did you mean to say that different entities build the flight model for each module? That was intended and it's fine. Again, input and output.

You and Maverick both like to bang on your aerodynamics knowledge drum, but when it comes down to doing work, you don't bother to produce any proof whatsoever, and Maverick does work but just doesn't manage to do it correctly.
Seriously, WTF people.
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Old 02-26-2018, 10:34 PM   #159
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Well, tharos, r u sure there are no real fighter pilots here? Maybee they are boored with regular procedures? U can never know. Maybee some of them are real aircraft designers that work on wind tunnel testing and research.. Man can't be sure, right. On the other hand, what performance charts from pilots manual say about stall speed, itr, str, max speed, climb comparison between theese two, where on chart and in whos favor? But before going deeper, what airfoil is used on Su27 main wing?
PS. If RL pilots have never overstressed wings to broke off how come that they fall off in DCS? Maybe DCS pilots have too strong arms and super high resistance to g-locs? If so, is that real? And regarding my homework, if you respected mr. Tharos, send me 3d model of DCS integrated eagle and flanker, and ill give you back comparrison data of each plane sweetspots with aerodynamic charts. But not before telling me what airfoils they use?


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Old 02-26-2018, 11:44 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by jackmckay View Post
Well, tharos, r u sure there are no real fighter pilots here? Maybee they are boored with regular procedures? U can never know.
In fact I do know. Don't maybe me. I don't mention real pilots because people who do not wish to be named/outed won't talk to you again if you do that to them, and they won't back you up. In other words, the only valid sources are documents available to us, not the implication that you know someone who knows something.
Prove with what's available to us or just stop.

Quote:
On the other hand, what performance charts from pilots manual say about stall speed, itr, str, max speed, climb comparison between theese two, where on chart and in whos favor?
You have the charts for each aircraft, you can read'em...or even super-impose.

Quote:
But before going deeper, what airfoil is used on Su27 main wing?
Who cares? You model aircraft performance, not airfoils, and a whole bunch of performance data is available.

Quote:
And regarding my homework, if you respected mr. Tharos, send me 3d model of DCS integrated eagle and flanker, and ill give you back comparrison data of each plane sweetspots with aerodynamic charts.
There's plenty of information to work with. CFDs are not required.
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