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FM Model for fast CPUs


shimasteama

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When I had an i5 CPU a friend of mine with over 8000 hours of heli and roughly 5000 hours on UH-1 told me, DCS is a little to hard in the hover. Inertia is much greater that simulated.

When I changed my PC to an i7-8700K, hovering got terrible.

It felt like a waterbed wobbling.

This is due to the fact that some parameters are computations derived by time. When computations derived by time assume a larger frame time, you get larger values by timespan. This is why on X-Plane you should choose every 4rth or fifth frame for a new flight state computation.

 

In order to get this done for the DCS Huey you have to correct the following values on:

 

Whatever:\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Uh-1H\FM

in the FMoptions.lua file set

cushionStrength=0.15

cushionWeakening=0.20

 

Now, by estimate of a very experienced UH-1 pilot, you will get a quite real flight physics on velocities below 20 KIAS.

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Or you perhaps you just can't hover. :P Only kidding. :D

 

I would think this is very subjective and would be dependent on what controls you are using and how they are setup. Also for me it seems the opposite improved system performance either from hardware or software tends to provide smother feel and finer control input.

 

 

Thanks for sharing, will be interesting to see what others observe. ;)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Only helicopter I flew was the 206, only three times, and to me this was very sensitive. Very hard to hover. I fly the huey better than I managed to do with the 206... :)

 

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Same here although in an R44 the Gazelle kinda feels similar in that the cyclic is very sensitive. Initially I tended to over correct a lot, after some practice hovering I got better. ;)

 

 

The take home from that is less input is more control and correct only what needs correcting.

 

No I'm just a SIM pilot with an expensive habit. :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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When I had an i5 CPU a friend of mine with over 8000 hours of heli and roughly 5000 hours on UH-1 told me, DCS is a little to hard in the hover. Inertia is much greater that simulated.

This is unfortunately a rather common mistake to do. Ask a real life pilot, no matter how many or few flight hours, to try a simulation and let them judge the FM. Very easy to get the wrong impression of the FM that way.

I don't know your friend and have no clue how much home-simulator time he has, but to make FM statements from him really relevant he needs quite high hour count in the sim first.

Why do I say this? There are quite many factors making the sim fundamentally difrent from real life.

One thing that is very pronounced and present also in professional training simulators are the lack of "seat of the pants", forces acting on your body. A very important aspect of real life helicopter flight. I believe it is even more important and causing more problems to remove for an experienced real life pilot without earlier sim time than a fresh one (I hold a CPL with 150h myself, so definitely the later).

Then we have the peripheral vision. One might not think of it as that important, but for balance purposes it is very much so, like in a hover. Even in VR this is an issue due to limited FOV, even if it's better than a single screen.

Then the most obvious, and already mentioned: controllers. What do you have? An ordinary joystick without pedals, a good fixed wing HOTAS with fighter throttle as collective, a reasonable dedicated helicopter setup with full-length cyclic between your legs or a professional, fully replicated setup with hydraulic actuators and feedback motors to replicate the real feeling? Without at least a dedicated helicopter setup with full-length cyclic, collective stick on your left and high resolution for all axis, it's not much use to let a real life pilot without earlier sim time comment on the FM.

There are definitely high hour real life pilots that also have a great deal of sim hours from home sim setups that can give relevant feedback, but they don't grow on trees. Many real life pilots don't really get a thrill out of siting in front a screen with mediocre controllers simulating what they do all day professionaly in the real thing. Maybe if they are retired or stopped flying for other reasons. But then they are highly aware of the limitations of sims and that it is a completely different world.

 

For whatever it's worth, I read an anecdote a while back, I think it was in the X-Plane forums. I can't find it and it is not self experienced, so it has rather low value to the discussion, but anyway. A dedicated helicopter sim pilot with several thousand hours but no real life experience described a situation that he found quite interesting. He attended an aviation exhibition of some sort and got the opportunity to try a professional training simulator of a SAR helicopter. He was tasked to approach a ship and land on its helipad. No problems, succeeded every try. The simulator had two seats, and the other one was occupied by a highly experienced real life pilot with over 10000h, but no earlier sim time what so ever. Guess what, he never succeed to land on that ship, no matter how many tries he got. For every failed attempt he got more and more frustrated, no surprise. And as I said, this was in a rated professional simulator. But then again, it's a non self experienced anecdote writen in a forum tread I can't find again...

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^ Yes The degraded change in peripheral vision I got with 2.5.4 VR really muddied my spatial perception at first still does. :thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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This is unfortunately a rather common mistake to do. Ask a real life pilot, no matter how many or few flight hours, to try a simulation and let them judge the FM. Very easy to get the wrong impression of the FM that way.

I don't know your friend and have no clue how much home-simulator time he has, but to make FM statements from him really relevant he needs quite high hour count in the sim first.

Why do I say this? There are quite many factors making the sim fundamentally difrent from real life.

One thing that is very pronounced and present also in professional training simulators are the lack of "seat of the pants", forces acting on your body. A very important aspect of real life helicopter flight. I believe it is even more important and causing more problems to remove for an experienced real life pilot without earlier sim time than a fresh one (I hold a CPL with 150h myself, so definitely the later).

Then we have the peripheral vision. One might not think of it as that important, but for balance purposes it is very much so, like in a hover. Even in VR this is an issue due to limited FOV, even if it's better than a single screen.

Then the most obvious, and already mentioned: controllers. What do you have? An ordinary joystick without pedals, a good fixed wing HOTAS with fighter throttle as collective, a reasonable dedicated helicopter setup with full-length cyclic between your legs or a professional, fully replicated setup with hydraulic actuators and feedback motors to replicate the real feeling? Without at least a dedicated helicopter setup with full-length cyclic, collective stick on your left and high resolution for all axis, it's not much use to let a real life pilot without earlier sim time comment on the FM.

There are definitely high hour real life pilots that also have a great deal of sim hours from home sim setups that can give relevant feedback, but they don't grow on trees. Many real life pilots don't really get a thrill out of siting in front a screen with mediocre controllers simulating what they do all day professionaly in the real thing. Maybe if they are retired or stopped flying for other reasons. But then they are highly aware of the limitations of sims and that it is a completely different world.

 

For whatever it's worth, I read an anecdote a while back, I think it was in the X-Plane forums. I can't find it and it is not self experienced, so it has rather low value to the discussion, but anyway. A dedicated helicopter sim pilot with several thousand hours but no real life experience described a situation that he found quite interesting. He attended an aviation exhibition of some sort and got the opportunity to try a professional training simulator of a SAR helicopter. He was tasked to approach a ship and land on its helipad. No problems, succeeded every try. The simulator had two seats, and the other one was occupied by a highly experienced real life pilot with over 10000h, but no earlier sim time what so ever. Guess what, he never succeed to land on that ship, no matter how many tries he got. For every failed attempt he got more and more frustrated, no surprise. And as I said, this was in a rated professional simulator. But then again, it's a non self experienced anecdote writen in a forum tread I can't find again...

 

Yeah, you nailed it.

 

When I started first flying the DCS Huey, I rage quit several times. I’m a friggin’ real life chopper pilot, and I can’t fly this thing! The FM is junk, I’d say to myself. Can’t hover, too sensitive to VRS, etc.

 

After a lot of practice I got better, but I still cannot fly it to the precision that I can with the real thing. I still couldn’t do this in DCS, but I did it IRL:

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=200904&stc=1&d=1546096659

 

The difference is control precision (I don’t have an extension) and seat of the pants feel. VR helps a lot but doesn’t make up for it all.

916D5AAA-E696-4D01-8F3B-B5BFBA7BBA7B.thumb.jpg.c309e3739b9e4cc09e84df4e2badbe0b.jpg


Edited by Sandman1330

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The difference is control precision

 

This so much. Seat of the pants feel we can't reproduce, but I've always said these el cheapo P.O.S. coarse plastic controllers are just crap and there's NO way for someone flying the real thing to just jump in and NOT think the FMs are garbage if they're using run of the mill shyte like most of us. So by all means use curves or whatever if you have to, but at least do something fergawdssakes...

 

/RANT ;)


Edited by msalama

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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This is unfortunately a rather common mistake to do. Ask a real life pilot, no matter how many or few flight hours, to try a simulation and let them judge the FM. Very easy to get the wrong impression of the FM that way.

I don't know your friend and have no clue how much home-simulator time he has, but to make FM statements from him really relevant he needs quite high hour count in the sim first.

Why do I say this? There are quite many factors making the sim fundamentally difrent from real life.

One thing that is very pronounced and present also in professional training simulators are the lack of "seat of the pants", forces acting on your body. A very important aspect of real life helicopter flight. I believe it is even more important and causing more problems to remove for an experienced real life pilot without earlier sim time than a fresh one (I hold a CPL with 150h myself, so definitely the later).

Then we have the peripheral vision. One might not think of it as that important, but for balance purposes it is very much so, like in a hover. Even in VR this is an issue due to limited FOV, even if it's better than a single screen.

Then the most obvious, and already mentioned: controllers. What do you have? An ordinary joystick without pedals, a good fixed wing HOTAS with fighter throttle as collective, a reasonable dedicated helicopter setup with full-length cyclic between your legs or a professional, fully replicated setup with hydraulic actuators and feedback motors to replicate the real feeling? Without at least a dedicated helicopter setup with full-length cyclic, collective stick on your left and high resolution for all axis, it's not much use to let a real life pilot without earlier sim time comment on the FM.

There are definitely high hour real life pilots that also have a great deal of sim hours from home sim setups that can give relevant feedback, but they don't grow on trees. Many real life pilots don't really get a thrill out of siting in front a screen with mediocre controllers simulating what they do all day professionaly in the real thing. Maybe if they are retired or stopped flying for other reasons. But then they are highly aware of the limitations of sims and that it is a completely different world.

 

For whatever it's worth, I read an anecdote a while back, I think it was in the X-Plane forums. I can't find it and it is not self experienced, so it has rather low value to the discussion, but anyway. A dedicated helicopter sim pilot with several thousand hours but no real life experience described a situation that he found quite interesting. He attended an aviation exhibition of some sort and got the opportunity to try a professional training simulator of a SAR helicopter. He was tasked to approach a ship and land on its helipad. No problems, succeeded every try. The simulator had two seats, and the other one was occupied by a highly experienced real life pilot with over 10000h, but no earlier sim time what so ever. Guess what, he never succeed to land on that ship, no matter how many tries he got. For every failed attempt he got more and more frustrated, no surprise. And as I said, this was in a rated professional simulator. But then again, it's a non self experienced anecdote writen in a forum tread I can't find again...

 

 

CFR part 61.129 would disagree with your IRL statement about holding a CPL, but that digresses from the point of this thread.

 

I do agree that the seat of the pants feel- what the aircraft is doing and how it responds to my inputs is the biggest thing missing today. VR helps but isn’t the complete answer. Force feedback on a yolk really helped Xplane feel much more like the real aircraft I fly, but still wasn’t there yet and I couldn’t fathom spending the kind of money they wanted. I’d rather be in the air!

 

The video of the two f18 fighter pilots dogfighting in DCS pretty much summed it up. Without the feel over what the aircraft is doing and how it’s responding to my input, the FM will always feel different. So much of flying is done simply by feel - I’m a pretty good stick and rudder pilot, but I can’t keep a ball centered in a coordinated turn in any flight sim to save my life. I just can’t feel the plane.

 

TJ

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Actually the very reference you quoted says 150hr for heli CPL.

 

In Canada it’s only 100hrs IIRC

Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2

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Actually the very reference you quoted says 150hr for heli CPL.

 

In Canada it’s only 100hrs IIRC

 

 

Hahahaha

 

Didn’t realize we were talking helos, something I’m totally not qualified in.

 

Wow- thanks for making me feel like a donkeys behind.

 

I’ll just insert my foot in my mouth and carry on.

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Hahahaha

 

Didn’t realize we were talking helos, something I’m totally not qualified in.

 

Wow- thanks for making me feel like a donkeys behind.

 

I’ll just insert my foot in my mouth and carry on.

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

LOL, happens to all of us, no worries :)

Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2

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CFR part 61.129 would disagree with your IRL statement about holding a CPL, but that digresses from the point of this thread.

Never occurred to you I could carry a license other than a FAA one?

Mine is an EASA CPL(H). Minimum required number of hours for ordinary modular training (PPL, self practice, CPL) is 185h. But for integrated course (0h to CPL directly) it's 135h. Got mine through the later summer of 2016 and have bought some hours and done two PC since then, since I haven't got an employment yet.

Helicopters and Viggen

DCS 1.5.7 and OpenBeta

Win7 Pro 64bit

i7-3820 3.60GHz

P9X79 Pro

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GTX 670 2GB

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Never occurred to you I could carry a license other than a FAA one?

Mine is an EASA CPL(H). Minimum required number of hours for ordinary modular training (PPL, self practice, CPL) is 185h. But for integrated course (0h to CPL directly) it's 135h. Got mine through the later summer of 2016 and have bought some hours and done two PC since then, since I haven't got an employment yet.

 

 

Good to hear! Good luck! I’ve been flying since 95! :)

 

And no, us Yanks don’t think about anyone other than ourself!

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Never occurred to you I could carry a license other than a FAA one?

Mine is an EASA CPL(H). Minimum required number of hours for ordinary modular training (PPL, self practice, CPL) is 185h. But for integrated course (0h to CPL directly) it's 135h. Got mine through the later summer of 2016 and have bought some hours and done two PC since then, since I haven't got an employment yet.

 

I think its quite easy to fall in that trap.

 

Ive got > 5k hrs. No licence.

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

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For the flight model I think its very nice, but it isnt perfect.

I think the input lag that teetering rotors gives isnt really there. The slow response, yes, but the delay isnt really there ?

 

I was not type rated on UH-1 but I have a few hours in it.

I flew B206 during basic traning.

 

I know getting back to the B206 and the flights in UH-1 really took some

concentration when the spinal behaviour was the Bo105 control physics.

I expected the same in DCS, but it doesnt happen.

 

Anyway, I enjoy playing around with the DCS Huey. Its a very good flight model even if it are differences to the reality. The 1:1 to reality isnt important to me, and I actually flown some FFS simulators that was way worse than DCS UH-1 ????

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

i9 13900KF@5.8/32Gb DDR5@6400/ Gigabyte Gaming OC RTX4090, ASUS STRIX Z790-F , 2Tb m2 NVMe

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Ive got > 5k hrs. No licence.

Just out of curiosity (and completely OT), I have gotten the impression you have a background in one of our Swedish helicopter squadrons? Never felt the need for a civilian license?

Helicopters and Viggen

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Just out of curiosity (and completely OT), I have gotten the impression you have a background in one of our Swedish helicopter squadrons? Never felt the need for a civilian license?

 

Thats right.

 

Very nice job so I havent had any plans to leave.

A licence maybe useful after retirement.

 

(I actually have licence for fixed wing)

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

i9 13900KF@5.8/32Gb DDR5@6400/ Gigabyte Gaming OC RTX4090, ASUS STRIX Z790-F , 2Tb m2 NVMe

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Thats right.

 

 

 

Very nice job so I havent had any plans to leave.

 

A licence maybe useful after retirement.

 

 

 

(I actually have licence for fixed wing)

Tack! Var länge en stor dröm för mej inför militärtjänstgöringen, glasögonen satte däremot stopp.

Helicopters and Viggen

DCS 1.5.7 and OpenBeta

Win7 Pro 64bit

i7-3820 3.60GHz

P9X79 Pro

32GB

GTX 670 2GB

VG278H + a Dell

PFT Lynx

TrackIR 5

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[FBV][/FBV]

Tack! Var länge en stor dröm för mej inför militärtjänstgöringen, glasögonen satte däremot stopp.

 

Ja, det är en ’bugger’ med glasögon i det fallet.

Far North, hur långt upp? Luleå i mitt fall :-)

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

i9 13900KF@5.8/32Gb DDR5@6400/ Gigabyte Gaming OC RTX4090, ASUS STRIX Z790-F , 2Tb m2 NVMe

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[FBV][/FBV]

 

 

 

Ja, det är en ’bugger’ med glasögon i det fallet.

 

Far North, hur långt upp? Luleå i mitt fall :-)

Då är vi grannar, Gällivare här ;)

Nu går vi lite OT dock

Helicopters and Viggen

DCS 1.5.7 and OpenBeta

Win7 Pro 64bit

i7-3820 3.60GHz

P9X79 Pro

32GB

GTX 670 2GB

VG278H + a Dell

PFT Lynx

TrackIR 5

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glasögon nuff said,.. :D :thumbup:

 

VR works fine without em. ;)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Hope so, whenever I get the money to upgrade my hardware

 

Did you try the Huey or DCS with VR ?

When you can, you must have. Its that big difference!

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

i9 13900KF@5.8/32Gb DDR5@6400/ Gigabyte Gaming OC RTX4090, ASUS STRIX Z790-F , 2Tb m2 NVMe

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Did you try the Huey or DCS with VR ?

 

When you can, you must have. Its that big difference!

Not yet, but looking forward to my first experience, whenever that happens.
Edited by Holton181

Helicopters and Viggen

DCS 1.5.7 and OpenBeta

Win7 Pro 64bit

i7-3820 3.60GHz

P9X79 Pro

32GB

GTX 670 2GB

VG278H + a Dell

PFT Lynx

TrackIR 5

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