AUTO / CCIP automatic switching

At the launch there was a thread where someone quoted the NATOPS about the AUTO bombing cross.

In the short it was that impact point cross was never suppose to go under the HUD but stay at bottom of HUD. And when the cross is not solid then you can fly it over target area and hold the release button and it will automatically turn to be a CCRP.

So you could easily and quickly get the targeting go from CCIP to CCRP.

I think the idea is that you can do low level bombing and just lock the target when crosshair gets over it and keep flying and then computer release bombs for you, without you going to switch between modes or need to estimate when to release bombs when release point is just few seconds later than CCIP would show you below your aircraft.

This is how it is done example in the Su-25T or Su-27S that by default it is CCRP but at altitude and angle it can turn to be a CCIP and it is shown then as solid line.

Apparently not yet implemented.

None of that made any sense at all. In CCIP the cross is the intended impact point. If it is below the edge of the cockpit, it's because your flight attitude does not align with having the intended impact point visible from within the confines of the cockpit.

If you are approaching the target and you have not yet decided on which delivery method your are using, go home and redo your training.

If you are approaching the target and you have not yet decided on which delivery method your are using, go home and redo your training.

You know, sometimes if you don't understand something it's better to ask instead of making foolish comments.

None of that made any sense at all. In CCIP the cross is the intended impact point. If it is below the edge of the cockpit, it's because your flight attitude does not align with having the intended impact point visible from within the confines of the cockpit.

 

If you are approaching the target and you have not yet decided on which delivery method your are using, go home and redo your training.

If you are approaching something that you don't know and you have not decided on whether you want to learn the truth behind post, go home and redo your training.

I recommend reading the freely available real world NATOPS TAC manual, that has been cited in the original post.

You may want to google A1-AV8BB-TAC-000.

To the guys who read and understood the original manual all he said makes perfectly sense.

Just too make sure, the plane we discuss is the AV-8B Harrier II Night Attack variant, not the Spitfire or MiG-19...

As for the OP: not yet implemented. Razbam did fix the ASL behavior recently so it behaves like intended so we make progress to move from the placeholder HUD modes to a realistic implementation.

I guess the CCIP to AUTO conversion mode is something we won't see quicky, but since the last fixes we can start with training AUTO deliveries. :)

None of that made any sense at all. In CCIP the cross is the intended impact point. If it is below the edge of the cockpit, it's because your flight attitude does not align with having the intended impact point visible from within the confines of the cockpit.

 

If you are approaching the target and you have not yet decided on which delivery method your are using, go home and redo your training.

The conversion bombing isn't modeled. You can quickly switch from CCIP to Auto by using the "uncage" button though.

I recommend reading the freely available real world NATOPS TAC manual, that has been cited in the original post.

You may want to google A1-AV8BB-TAC-000.

To the guys who read and understood the original manual all he said makes perfectly sense.

Just too make sure, the plane we discuss is the AV-8B Harrier II Night Attack variant, not the Spitfire or MiG-19...

As for the OP: not yet implemented. Razbam did fix the ASL behavior recently so it behaves like intended so we make progress to move from the placeholder HUD modes to a realistic implementation.

I guess the CCIP to AUTO conversion mode is something we won't see quicky, but since the last fixes we can start with training AUTO deliveries. :)

The NATOPS TAC-000 is 800(!!) pages. You guys claim some knowledge hidden within those 800 pages which don't jive with the RAZBAM module, then it is your job to reference chapter and paragraph.

The NATOPS TAC-000 is 800(!!) pages. You guys claim some knowledge hidden within those 800 pages which don't jive with the RAZBAM module, then it is your job to reference chapter and paragraph.

If you don't know something, don't claim it doesn't make sense. OP was right, you were wrong. That's it.

Just an extremely quick google search would have given you what you were looking for: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3380639

Page 2-70 of the TAC-000.

Not only does it make sense, but it's even already in another DCS module (named CCIP Consent Release in the A-10C). So, as you say: "go home and redo your training".

I stand corrected -- in one point, that the NATOPS does describe switching from CCIP to Auto (CCRP). It does not say ".. impact point cross was never suppose to go under the HUD but stay at bottom of HUD" at all, but "When the computed impact point is outside the HUD FOV in the CCIP mode, the MC inhibits weapon release", and then goes on to describe going over to Auto mode (CCRP). In fact the NATOPS describes in detail the ground impact point cross NOT being within the HUD FOV.

Maybe my stupid comments on not setting up an attack correctly I was a bit harsh. IMO the difference in setup and execution between using CCIP and Auto (CCRP) are worlds apart.

But obviously McD thought it an important enough situation to implement switching delivery modes mid-attack. I'll withhold further judgement as to how such situations occur.

I stand corrected -- in one point, that the NATOPS does describe switching from CCIP to Auto (CCRP). It does not say ".. impact point cross was never suppose to go under the HUD but stay at bottom of HUD" at all, but "When the computed impact point is outside the HUD FOV in the CCIP mode, the MC inhibits weapon release", and then goes on to describe going over to Auto mode (CCRP). In fact the NATOPS describes in detail the ground impact point cross NOT being within the HUD FOV.

 

Maybe my stupid comments on not setting up an attack correctly I was a bit harsh. IMO the difference in setup and execution between using CCIP and Auto (CCRP) are worlds apart.

 

But obviously McD thought it an important enough situation to implement switching delivery modes mid-attack. I'll withhold further judgement as to how such situations occur.

Computed Impact Point =/= CCIP cross

The CIP is just the point of impact of the weapon, whether or not it’s in the HUD FOV. The cross is always in the HUD FOV, switching to a dashed symbology when the CIP does not match the cross.

To the opposite of what you said, the NATOPS goes into detail (even with figures) about how the cross always stays in the HUD FOV.

_________

The usefulness is pretty obvious: it allows for a fast, visual designation using a dive bombing approach (often more precise than level releases) without having to dive so deep as to actually make the CIP appear in the HUD FOV. It is often seen being used by British Harrier (HUD footage videos available on Youtube).

Again, this is the same thing as the A-10C CCIP Consent Release, a most useful feature.

Let's say it would have been nice to ask the OP to elaborate on his findings as you never read or heard about the functionality, instead?

The NATOPS TAC-000 is 800(!!) pages. You guys claim some knowledge hidden within those 800 pages which don't jive with the RAZBAM module, then it is your job to reference chapter and paragraph.

Computed Impact Point =/= CCIP cross

 

The CIP is just the point of impact of the weapon, whether or not it’s in the HUD FOV. The cross is always in the HUD FOV, switching to a dashed symbology when the CIP does not match the cross.

 

To the opposite of what you said, the NATOPS goes into detail (even with figures) about how the cross always stays in the HUD FOV.

_________

 

The usefulness is pretty obvious: it allows for a fast, visual designation using a dive bombing approach (often more precise than level releases) without having to dive so deep as to actually make the CIP appear in the HUD FOV. It is often seen being used by British Harrier (HUD footage videos available on Youtube).

 

Again, this is the same thing as the A-10C CCIP Consent Release, a most useful feature.

"In the CCIP mode, the ground impact point is continuously computed and displayed as a cross on the HUD" AV-8 TACTICAL MANUAL, NWP 3-22.5-AV8B, VOLUME I, A1-AV8BB-TAC-000, P. 2-67, Section 2.5.3.

The manual talks a lot about the cross being outside the HUD FOV, which is used to make the situation more understandable for the reader. When the cross is outside the HUD FOV, its position is still calculated, so mathematically speaking, it's always there, just not displayed.

In fact McD has gone so far as to add a visual cue for the pilot to be able to picture where the cross can be visualized; the REFLECTED CUE:

The reflected CCIP symbol indicates how far the impact point is below the HUD field of view. It is reflected about the end of the bomb fall line. (The closer the reflected symbol is to the velocity vector, the further the actual CCIP cross is from the HUD FOV.) As the weapon impact point approaches the HUD FOV, the reflected symbol begins to fall. When it reaches the bottom of the bomb fall line, it is replaced by the solid CCIP cross.

Let's say it would have been nice to ask the OP to elaborate on his findings as you never read or heard about the functionality, instead?

Sometimes I should count to 10... forwards and backwards... and then go have a cup of tea... Darjeeling would be fine.

None of that made any sense at all. In CCIP the cross is the intended impact point. If it is below the edge of the cockpit, it's because your flight attitude does not align with having the intended impact point visible from within the confines of the cockpit.

 

If you are approaching the target and you have not yet decided on which delivery method your are using, go home and redo your training.

The Dunning-Kruger is strong in this guy ayy!

Please do some basic research before pretending to be an expert. This pretty much goes for any subject.

The hashed cross in CCIP works as a designator for an AUTO release.

"In the CCIP mode, the ground impact point is continuously computed and displayed as a cross on the HUD" AV-8 TACTICAL MANUAL, NWP 3-22.5-AV8B, VOLUME I, A1-AV8BB-TAC-000, P. 2-67, Section 2.5.3.

 

The manual talks a lot about the cross being outside the HUD FOV, which is used to make the situation more understandable for the reader. When the cross is outside the HUD FOV, its position is still calculated, so mathematically speaking, it's always there, just not displayed.

 

In fact McD has gone so far as to add a visual cue for the pilot to be able to picture where the cross can be visualized; the REFLECTED CUE:

P. 2-69, same manual as above.

Again, wrong. The reflected cue for CCIP is the thick horizontal line shown below the velocity vector (if within 4.3 degrees of the velocity vector). Figure 2-59, left side, at page 2-59 perfectly illustrates this. Citing page 2-69:

The heavy line across the bomb fall line is the reflected CCIP symbol.

If you read the NATOPS carefully, you'll learn that:

- The CCIP cross becomes dashed when limited (solution outside of parameters or outside of FOV).

- When the solution is outside of HUD FOV (such as in the top right side of Figure 2-58), a reflected (about the lower end of the BFL) CCIP cue appears (thick line below the VV).

- When the solution is outside of HUD FOV, immediate weapon release is inhibited.

- CCIP-to-AUTO release happen when the CIP solution is outside of HUD FOV, but the Weapon Release button is held down. Symbology switches from CCIP to AUTO with the designated point at the dashed cross position when Weapon Release was first depressed (and held down).

- CCIP-to-AUTO is aborted (or reverted) when Weapon Release is released.

Figure 2-61 perfectly shows the attack profile of a CCIP-to-AUTO conversion attack.

TL;DR: CCIP cross is always shown on HUD. When CIP solution is outside of HUD FOV, the cross becomes dashed and stays at the bottom. Holding down Weapon Release designates the target under the dashed cross for an AUTO release, as long as you continue to hold down the Weapon Release.

Again, wrong. The reflected cue for CCIP is the thick horizontal line shown below the velocity vector (if within 4.3 degrees of the velocity vector). Figure 2-59, left side, at page 2-59 perfectly illustrates this. Citing page 2-69:

 

 

 

If you read the NATOPS carefully, you'll learn that:

 

- The CCIP cross becomes dashed when limited (solution outside of parameters or outside of FOV).

- When the solution is outside of HUD FOV (such as in the top right side of Figure 2-58), a reflected (about the lower end of the BFL) CCIP cue appears (thick line below the VV).

- When the solution is outside of HUD FOV, immediate weapon release is inhibited.

- CCIP-to-AUTO release happen when the CIP solution is outside of HUD FOV, but the Weapon Release button is held down. Symbology switches from CCIP to AUTO with the designated point at the dashed cross position when Weapon Release was first depressed (and held down).

- CCIP-to-AUTO is aborted (or reverted) when Weapon Release is released.

 

Figure 2-61 perfectly shows the attack profile of a CCIP-to-AUTO conversion attack.

 

TL;DR: CCIP cross is always shown on HUD. When CIP solution is outside of HUD FOV, the cross becomes dashed and stays at the bottom. Holding down Weapon Release designates the target under the dashed cross for an AUTO release, as long as you continue to hold down the Weapon Release.

I think you are misunderstanding something fundamental; what is a FOV -- Field Of View:

field of view - noun

English Language Learners Definition of field of view

: the area that can be seen when you look through a telescope, a pair of binoculars, etc. -- Merriam-Webster - Since 1828.

Something, which is outside the HUD FOV cannot be seen on the HUD inside the aircraft. The diagrams from which you are quoting are an illustration of how the program works; not of what you see on your HUD inside the aircraft. If you could see the impact cross, why would you need the reflected CCIP symbol?

"The reflected CCIP symbol indicates how far the impact point is below the HUD field of view" -- below the HUD field of view, meaning, not visibly on the HUD inside the cockpit.

Realize what outside the HUD FOV menas, and go back and re-read that section and I think a light will go on over your head :)

When the impact point is outside the HUD FOV, the former CCIP cross, switches to the dashed cross and fall line, which is no longer representing the impact point but the mark to designate the target for AUTO release. The reflected cue shows how far the impact point is below the HUD FOV, so you can decide to AUTO designate or wait a second for the impact point reaching the HUD FOV and switching to the solid CCIP symbology again.

It would be a bad day, if you press and hold release to designate for AUTO and just that moment the CCIP cross reappears and you pickle on a farmhouse, instead of the bad guys. That's why you have the reflected cue when you can transition to AUTO.

It is very useful and intuitive, actually.

I think you are misunderstanding something fundamental; what is a FOV -- Field Of View:

field of view - noun

English Language Learners Definition of field of view

: the area that can be seen when you look through a telescope, a pair of binoculars, etc. -- Merriam-Webster - Since 1828.

 

Something, which is outside the HUD FOV cannot be seen on the HUD inside the aircraft. The diagrams from which you are quoting are an illustration of how the program works; not of what you see on your HUD inside the aircraft. If you could see the impact cross, why would you need the reflected CCIP symbol?

 

"The reflected CCIP symbol indicates how far the impact point is below the HUD field of view" -- below the HUD field of view, meaning, not visibly on the HUD inside the cockpit.

 

Realize what outside the HUD FOV menas, and go back and re-read that section and I think a light will go on over your head :)

The impact cross indicates the predicted impact point. If the impact point is outside of the HUD FOV then you will get the reflected line as a means of judging how far the predicted impact point is below the HUD.

When the impact point is outside the HUD FOV, the former CCIP cross, switches to the dashed cross and fall line, which is no longer representing the impact point but the mark to designate the target for AUTO release. The reflected cue shows how far the impact point is below the HUD FOV, so you can decide to AUTO designate or wait a second for the impact point reaching the HUD FOV and switching to the solid CCIP symbology again.

It would be a bad day, if you press and hold release to designate for AUTO and just that moment the CCIP cross reappears and you pickle on a farmhouse, instead of the bad guys. That's why you have the reflected cue when you can transition to AUTO.

It is very useful and intuitive, actually.

There are two possibility, both stemming from the fact that to use CCRP you need a designated target.

The target is already designated in DMT or TPOD. The solution is then simple; press the pickle, level-out, put the VV on the ASL, and wait for the magic to happen (CCRP drops the bomb on the selected target).

The target is NOT designated in DMT or TPOD. Oh boy, Mary-Ann's farm house is in grave danger.

So, CCIP is out of the question, bc putting the CCIP cross on the target would require putting the aircraft into an attitude you wish to avoid -- would put you into too steep of a dive, would cause you to go too low (*ahem* strike the ground), what-the-ever-reason. So when the manual says, you put the CCIP cross over the target, you have to understand, you may not be able to see the target (maybe just between the HUD and the lip of the cockpit).

So, you have to use the cues you have to designate the target, such as the nav-line on the heading-tape, and the Reflection Bar on the ASL.

..... *ahem*

So, getting a bomb on target in this situation will require lots and lots of skill and training, or just about as much luck.

The impact cross indicates the predicted impact point. If the impact point is outside of the HUD FOV then you will get the reflected line as a means of judging how far the predicted impact point is below the HUD.

Yes, it's a rather if-y proposition, to say the least.

As a couple other community members pointed out, CCIP-to-AUTO conversion is pretty similar to the A-10C's CCIP consent, which is very useful by the way.

As the Harrier does not have a CCRP mode (it as AUTO mode) and the problem likely is that you do not want to understand what is described in elaborate detail in the manuals, nor even try to understand what people are trying to explain, you are obviously trolling... it does not make sense to discuss any further

I am sure Razbam understands pretty well, how CCIP-to-AUTO conversion, reflected cue and LOFT mode work and will implement it. Until then have fun wasting other people's time. ;)

What?! ... :huh:

No, I'm trying to convey the things the manual doesn't spell out; things you have to kind of read-between the lines to get, like putting the CCIP cross on the target is not something you do by visually walking it in until you see it over the target, because if you could see the target and the CCIP cross at the same time to do that, you could simply use CCIP to pickle the bomb onto the target. If fact, you would have no other option, because operating the pickle would drop the bomb immediately, and not provide the opportunity to use CCIP-to-Auto.

Now, I won't discount that there's maybe something I'm missing. Wouldn't be the first time, and I'd gladly hear what, because I'm always glad to learn something new.

@Captain Orso

Never thought it'd be that hard to understand... And you should really change that attitude. Someone else noted the Dunning-Kruger effect and I found it harsh, but to be honest with that attitude it does seem to be pointing this way.

Again :

CIP (computed impact point) is independent from the CCIP cross

CIP: The computed point where the weapon would hit on the ground if the selected weapon was released at this instant

CCIP cross: The cross symbology which can mean several things:

- If CIP is within HUD FOV (as in, can be seen through the HUD) --> CCIP cross is exactly on top of the CIP

- If CIP is outside of HUD FOV (as in, cannot be seen through the HUD) --> CCIP cross stays at the limit of the HUD FOV, becomes dashed. The CCIP dashed cross is then used to designate an AUTO point if Weapon Release is held down, just like the Balls and Chain of the Hornet. You can read on that procedure in the NATOPS, here's a snippet:

The reflected CIP cue (i.e. the thick horizontal line on the BFL) is shown if CIP is outside HUD FOV, as is shown on this image:

* Note how the symbology is NOT like the Hornet, meaning the CCIP cross is NOT used as the reflected CIP cue. A different symbol (thick horizontal line) appears and the CCIP cross (now dashed) stays on the HUD too, now used as a designation symbol.

P.374 (at the bottom) of the A-10C manual describes 3/9 and 5 mils CCIP Consent to Release modes, which is exactly what CCIP-to-AUTO conversion is, albeit with a different symbology.

What you missed is the difference between CCIP-Cross, Computed Impact Point and dashed CCIP-Cross, which are three different things.

CCIP-Cross marks the CIP if in the HUD field of view.

Computed Impact Point (CIP) is where the bomb hits, thus if it is outside HUD field of view the cross changes to the dashed CCIP-Cross and Reflected Cue is presented.

Dashed CCIP-Cross is used to designate a point inside the HUD field of view, while the CIP is outside the HUD field of view. If the dashed cross is over the target, you press and hold the pickle button and the symbology transitions to the AUTO delivery mode. Now you can level off or pull up carefully and deliver the bomb in AUTO mode instead of further diving into the engagement range of a ZSU-3-4 Shilka or breaking of the attack and reposition...

EDIT: currently the dashed cross has nothing to do with transition etc. it is a place holder denoting a "bad solution", but NOT avdesignate reference like in real life.

What?! ... :huh:

 

No, I'm trying to convey the things the manual doesn't spell out; things you have to kind of read-between the lines to get, like putting the CCIP cross on the target is not something you do by visually walking it in until you see it over the target, because if you could see the target and the CCIP cross at the same time to do that, you could simply use CCIP to pickle the bomb onto the target. If fact, you would have no other option, because operating the pickle would drop the bomb immediately, and not provide the opportunity to use CCIP-to-Auto.

 

Now, I won't discount that there's maybe something I'm missing. Wouldn't be the first time, and I'd gladly hear what, because I'm always glad to learn something new.