Just a normal workday in the Harrier...

Yesterday, my buddy asked me if we wanna do a ride in the Harrier, he is rusty on it and I know it quite good.

I thought for sure, lets do it. Overall I like the Harrier and its firepower.

Ok, so lets start with a cold and dark aircraft.

We attached the target pod, gun, two TER with GBU12's and two AGM65E

We started the Harrier and took off, no mentionable problems.

I turned on the target pod and was surprised that slew with an axis now works a little bit better, did they change something?

So I found my target and pressed TDC down to designate it. Nice, the right MFD changed from the Tpod to the DMT (which is turned off) and tried to designate the target in INS mode. Bug 1

I don't know why, but it is a difference if you use the TDC Slew axis or the TDCS direction buttons. Don't know why, but with slew the target is not designated and you have to press TDC action. Most times, this rejects you out of the POD to the DMT. Annoying.

I quickly found out that it not matters, slewing with an axis is still so bugged that it is not useable. Bug 2

Ok, So I'm again useing the TDC direction buttons...

I had a lot of ground targets placed (training map) so I started to lase and take out one target after another with the GBU's.

At least, if you be able to stay in the air because of the extreme roll tendency when flying with asymetrical load. Bug 3

Or if you are even able to drop a bomb correctly because of the broken ASL... Bug 4

BTW I'm happy that I've placed only static targets, as it would not be possible to track moving targets. Bug 5

Oh nice, my last two GBU's did not hit because my tpod just stopped lasing (altough the L is blinking). Bug 6

Turned laser off and on so that it worked again and my last GBU hit again.

We switched over to the AGM65E, at least those two worked now as they should.

As we run low on fuel (maybe Bug 7(?), I read in the forum that the fuel consumption is too high) we headed over to air refueling.

Man, that was grueling.

At first, the KC-135 now drags both drogues out and you have to call it to be able to refuel. Without it, you just fly trough the drogue... SO WTF?!?!?!

It was again an incredible hard time to "blind" refuel the Harrier. Yes, the probe is not as easy positioned as in the F18 or Mirage, but the forum showed clearly that it is still too far behind. Bug 8

And it still feels for me that the flight model is just not right and good. But ok, that a personal feeling.

While on the way home, my buddy and me went too close to an SA8. As he was not able to deploy chaffs (Bug 9) he got downed by it.

I was wondering why I got no alarm about that and opend the EW page on the right MFD. Oh, nice, I forget to turn on the RWR, but the SA8 is still shown there on the MFD. Bug 10

So, I went back to base alone, (while Betty got stuck in loop and tried to say something, Bug 11) did a vertical landing, taxied to parking area and shut down the aircraft.

As you can see, just a normal workday in the Harrier. No special searching for bugs like FLIR alignement, drop order on TER, slaving tpod to wayoints, etc...

So Razbam, I like the Harrier, but I'm dissapointed that those bugs are known (partialy) since months to a year and nothing happens about them. You are working on new modules and releasing new modules, but we also paid a full price(!) for a work in progress module where basicaly is NO (mentionable) work in progress.

We are not talking about some minor or cosmetical issues, we are talking about core issues.

So, may I kindly ask you whats your plans on fixing all those core bugs and bring the Harrier to a status where it should be after 1+ years after releasing it in early access?

And please, don't lie any more up to us with fairy tales of different teams etc...

Tell us the truth. Why nothing happend, what the state is now and how you are going to proceed.

We all paid you a lot of money, and I think we at least deserve that.

Or whats the way you are treating your paying customers?

And before you consider me trolling, tell me where I'm not writing the truth.

I'm not trolling, I would have no benefit from that.

I only want you, Razbam, to start doing the work we have paid you for...

I love the harrier, but love this mod is like having a cheating hot redhead as a girlfriend, you know the ugly truth... “she makes you so happy but your love is not corresponded.”

=Decoy=?

Killing time in the bathroom, honey brings me some matches...fewwwwww.

A classic...

The typical passive-agressive behaviour repeated over and over again.

Jeezzzz... Kindly saying... You know....

I agree with you. The status of the Harrier module is so sad... :(

A classic...

 

The typical passive-agressive behaviour repeated over and over again.

 

Jeezzzz... Kindly saying... You know....

Tell me whats not true of what I wrote and how old those bugs are.

You are mixing bugs, features not implemented yet and user errors all together. (some are exclusive ED side)

You already know that. But hey... kindly saying, keep calling developers liars... Thats very helpful.

This must be the most spot-on post I’ve read about the DCS Harrier experience. Anyone denying that are just blindingly defending the devs in face of facts. They are not doing themselves, the devs, the players or the Harrier any favours by doing so. Period.

Honestly, Eagle Dynamics should do the right thing and pull the Harrier from the store until major fixes and changes has been done. I have owned plenty of EA dlc, games and DCS modules. But the Harrier is way below early access expectations. Especially since it has been out for a long time now. The forum posts are not wrong, players are upset. Not only about the flaws and bugs, but lack of progress or focus on other projects.

Im not denying bugs, issues, features not implemented, long developments. Is obvious.

Im pointing HOW some express that here on the forums.

Is not so hard beeing positive, constructive criticism, mature behaviour, beeing helpful reporting bugs and issues. Hey just observing forum rules. Thats all.

Even beeing emotional, expressing frustrations is OK. Nothing against but hey, respect please, is the only thing im asking here. Again calling developers liars is not the way to go.

Just my oppinion

i agree with viper..... we are frustrated and being polite isnt getting us working aircraft. The A10 took about a year to get everything working. Im halting any purchases until DCS moves forward.

Mirmidon, we dont need you being our shepard and talking down to us.There are always bullies like you in every forum and you are tiresome and shallow.

Thanks, your reaction explains a lot of things happening all over the forum. Expected, but sad.

Thats why so many veteran users are avoiding the forums more and more. And why im posting less and less after so many years here since Flanker 2.5 times. (15 years around this forums)

Some will be happy, im not but certainly i will keep my activity with my Squad mates. I just have enough of this.

Thanks again.

Well, what viper said here is not entirely wrong. Well, if Razbam is lying now ... hm. I would not go so far. At least their ways of working have not been the neatest in recent weeks / months. And the fact is that the Mirage and the Harrier have been half-baked for months. And there are people who stink that, if nothing happens here, but you find time to work on other modules. Then Razbam should hire more developers and better distribute the work. If you can not cope with such opinions then you probably have to do it and keep your activity with your Squad mates.

This module has so much potential, many were looking forward to it. And what did we stand today?

I go one step further, the same with the Gazelle. This module has been around for a few years now, and many things have happened in DCS World since then. But where do you see that this module continues? A gazelle with minigun. OK. And what do you get from Polychop listening when you ask if / how it goes on here? "We decide if / when the module will be patched / enhanced, not if the user agrees." As a consumer, I act as a financier and then I have to shut up.

But ED and Heatblur also show how things can be better.

I don't think we will see much work on the Harrier front until the mig19 is fixed. It seems like its all hands on deck fixing that right now.

@kotor:

I think it can be agreed upon that it's currently a bit of a PR-challenge.

And things that might have lead viper to use the word liar (or similar) might be because there are promises and they are continously broken.

There was the communication that right after the MiG-19 the M2000 overhaul is next and then AV8B overhaul. Now the official line is that after MiG-19 the team is moving on to MiG-23. It could be a different team, who knows. It wasn't communicated clearly enough and trust level is down.

There was a central promise on what av8b-features are still missing (and potentially who/when they might be implemented). This list has been mentioned in January, but was delayed as it relied on people coming back from vacation. There have been communications since then, that it will be made available "shortly".

It now is beginning of March and there is no word, no update on it. The thread in which this was mentioned has been closed.

I didn't want to bring this up in public again so I wrote =DECOY= in a PM about this, but got no response after days.

I don't want to point out specific people, particularily because one of the perceived problems is that RAZBAM as an entity isn't that transparent as to the amount and whereabouts of the people, at least to some here on the forum.

I just want to point out that trust is at a lowpoint at the moment between parts of the community and RAZBAM, that communication is the key to fix that, and that people lashing out here is because they see little other way to raise their feelings and complaints. They are essentially helpless in a situation that is beyond their control.

To say it with a metaphor:

You get to know a woman/a man you like. You go and buy them dinner, go on a date, it was a cool date and a nice dinner. But there is this promise that this is going to be more, as you see her/him to be the most gorgeous person in the whole world.

But it's always you who has to phone her/him. The responses are growing shorter, sometimes you're blocked when you call. The dating isn't that regular anymore and the quality suffers.

But you see on Facebook, that he/she seems to be going out with other friends, so he/she has the free time, but just choses to not spend it on you, but when asked .. if he/she answers, he/she says everything is ok. That you should not worry.

And then you have friends like Esac_mirmidon that tell you that he/she's still totally into you, that your gut feeling is wrong and that you shouldn't start thinking about seeing other women/men, and that they don't like to hear you moaning about this woman/man anymore.

To have to explain this here is frustrating, as I personally do not believe =DECOY= or anyone else from RAZBAM will read it and get something new from this. I am quite sure that RAZBAM is aware of this and I believe not communicating is done consciously.

I am helpless, I can't do anything about this, all I can do is turn to ED and hope they know what they are doing in their ecosystem. And ED has my trust.

Personally, I just don't fly the Harrier anymore. I don't feel like reporting defects, as I don't feel respected or my time spent on that valued by RAZBAM.

tl;dr: Relationship status: It's complicated.

However it makes no sense to go personal here, or to just throw back and forth. This is not a domain of equals. There is a distinct direction in which the money flows, so the receiving end - especially as the professional entity in this relationship - needs to present a plan and stick to it to get this straightened out. And personally I do feel that the state of the Harrier is by now something that the CEO of RAZBAM can make an appearance about. If he would bring to the table an idea how to walk the rest of the way together at a pace that's acceptable to all, then that would be a huge step in the right direction to calm the waves.

@Easc_mirmidor: Even though I mentioned you personally, I don't mean specifically you, as there are lots of people here that like you don't see the fuzz, have a thicker hide, etc. Due to seniority or due to this particular plane just not being that important to them is something I cannot answer.

I understand where you're coming from and try to see it more relaxed. But also ask for the effort to put yourself into the shoes of others.

Unfortunately I agree with the point of the OP's post. I do not think it appropriate to call Razbam liars though and must disagree with him there. Fresh bugs pop up. Its annoying when betty is bitching at me when I have my gear down and I'm on final and I get a "PULL UP! PULL UP!" But thats the nature of the beast and I don't fault Razbam for that one. But ASL and Tpod? A-10 has a working ASL and tpod. Another dev claims their product will be releasing with a working tpod. We have shkval in the KA-50. CCRP works in the Mirage. I feel like more could be being done to improve the situation. I'm not part of the process so hey maybe I'm wrong. But this waiting on ED code is starting to ring hollow.

Good post deadpool, +1.

As some of you seem to have a problem with the "liar". I don't want to use it an an offending way, but there have been constantly broken promises and also they said that the Mig is done by another team so that the overhaul of the M2K and Harrier is not delayed.

Sorry, where I come from, this is lying.

But I would not like to discuss if it is lying, false expections etc , I just would like to hear whats the real plan to go on, and that they'll stick to it.

we are frustrated and being polite isnt getting us working aircraft.

Being childish and unpolite will get you the working aircraft? I'm excited to see that day :music_whistling:

And how can Razbam expect us to buy the air to ground F-15 when so many Harrier systems are not correct? The F-15E will be even more complex and difficult to make.

Thanks, your reaction explains a lot of things happening all over the forum. Expected, but sad.

 

Thats why so many veteran users are avoiding the forums more and more. And why im posting less and less after so many years here since Flanker 2.5 times. (15 years around this forums)

 

Some will be happy, im not but certainly i will keep my activity with my Squad mates. I just have enough of this.

 

Thanks again.

Get a cold beer and calm down, these are not unjustified posts you wouldn't see me posting around here if I got the answer I seek ( not those evasive 2 different teams, on works etc ) I'm sure it will be same for the others as well. I'd rather spend my time flying my favorite airframe than posting non-accepted bug reports or going over others bug reports to make sure it gets adressed.

Like someone above said, we have here a mix of errors in the procedure, some bugs, and some stuff not implemented or in development.

Maybe RAZBAN are just a just few guys dealing with an old mod that was coded by someone who is not with the team anymore and they are deciphering that code, each programmer have his own way to code and this mod is like a mysterious BLACK BOX, on one side we can see a carrot entering and in the other side little black spheres coming out, may inside exist a rabbit, maybe a machine converting carrots in little spheres or the carrot go to another dimension and from where the balls are coming. Is not an easy task to fix a code programmed by an absent person.

I sent a message to another company complaining about some bugs and they said that most of the bugs are not related to them but to ED, with every day the DCS world is enhanced and what is fixed and working today with the current version in the next upgrade some parameters are changed and the mod is full of bugs again and they can't say anything due to a NON DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT.

Let's wait, Ron Zambrano is posting in twitter nice screenshot of the upcoming upgrades for the Harrier.

Yes, maybe I'm right but no, 90% of what Viper said is true. I'm sorry for my English.

So I found my target and pressed TDC down to designate it. Nice, the right MFD changed from the Tpod to the DMT (which is turned off) and tried to designate the target in INS mode. Bug 1

User made mistake by pressing TDC. Just slew the TPOD over to the target area and leave it.

At least, if you be able to stay in the air because of the extreme roll tendency when flying with asymetrical load. Bug 3

User not flying correctly with asymmetric loads. I have no problems with enough smash and avoiding certain high-G maneuvers.

Or if you are even able to drop a bomb correctly because of the broken ASL... Bug 4

Yes, the ASL is broken, but that's never prevented me from putting four GBU-12s down the TC hatches of four tanks.

Oh nice, my last two GBU's did not hit because my tpod just stopped lasing (altough the L is blinking). Bug 6

I have no problems lasing four GBUs. If you're carrying any more than four you should go back to Ace Combat.

As he was not able to deploy chaffs (Bug 9)

User failed to set Chaff release to 'P' in the EW page.

mysterious BLACK BOX, on one side we can see a carrot entering and in the other side little black spheres coming out, may inside exist a rabbit, maybe a machine converting carrots in little spheres or the carrot go to another dimension and from where the balls are coming.

I really want this to be some sort of cultural Argentinian meme...

Maybe like this...

I really want this to be some sort of cultural Argentinian meme...

 

 

 

Maybe like this...

 

 

 

Hahaha, I don’t know the origen but you can use it for multiple things. Your father don’t know what is inside or how an hospital works but you just entered in the emergency room with an acute abdominal pain and the only thing that matter to your parents is having his son cured.

We don’t know how this works or how many coders they have but we put money in this side and we deserve a working product in the other side of the black box.

Killing time in the bathroom, honey bring me some matches...fewwwwww.

Even if not all points of the OP are actually bugs on RAZBAM's side, I get the message and can totally understand the whole feeling behind it.

To say it with a metaphor:

You get to know a woman/a man you like. You go and buy them dinner, go on a date, it was a cool date and a nice dinner. But there is this promise that this is going to be more, as you see her/him to be the most gorgeous person in the whole world.

But it's always you who has to phone her/him. The responses are growing shorter, sometimes you're blocked when you call. The dating isn't that regular anymore and the quality suffers.

But you see on Facebook, that he/she seems to be going out with other friends, so he/she has the free time, but just choses to not spend it on you, but when asked .. if he/she answers, he/she says everything is ok. That you should not worry.

 

And then you have friends like Esac_mirmidon that tell you that he/she's still totally into you, that your gut feeling is wrong and that you shouldn't start thinking about seeing other women/men, and that they don't like to hear you moaning about this woman/man anymore.

 

To have to explain this here is frustrating [...]

Take that metaphor, replace that whole date thingy with having to deal with others in general and that pretty much sums up how real life works, which is frustrating as well.

One thing that really gets me is that many things once worked, but then have been broken later on. Latest thing is the fuel consumption and thrust/rpm thing. They just say that they've got hard data on the most recent changes, but not providing them. Comparing that what's in DCS to the tables in the NATOPS manuals (cruise speeds/FF for example), I come to another conclusion: It's not correct anymore, but has been before. I mean, it takes over 50% RPM to get the plane moving when it's clean and almost dry. Put some stores on and you're easily sitting there with 60% RPM without moving. The real thing jumps out of position in ground idle (which is 29% RPM or even less) as soon as you step off the brakes (yes, I know, this is also a common DCS issue, but in the Harrier it's pronounced the most by far now). Also, it's impossible to cruise a clean plane on less than ~100ppm, just because you're stalling out with less. The real thing manages to keep flying with 60 or less. I once took her with just 2 tanks and 2 rocket pods... that thing could've been outrun by an A-10 easily. With less than 70% RPM it was almost impossible to stay airborne. It was so much fun to fly the Harrier until they messed this up. It's just frustrating now... the mighty Pegasus literally lost it's wings.

The MiG-19 also has some pretty weird thrust/RPM issues, coincidence?

For example: Rev up to 9600rpm, plane stays in place, pull brake lever, increase to 9700-9800rpm, plane stays in place, release brake, thing gets moving, brake again to stop her, hold the brake and then kick one rudder pedal and the thing goes off as if you kicked in the afterburner, but it won't turn around...

At least I can spend quite some time in the Tomcat soon, so they'll get plenty of time to get things right

User not flying correctly with asymmetric loads. I have no problems with enough smash and avoiding certain high-G maneuvers.

Well, there's been the statement of a Harrier driver around that this is no issue in the real thing at all. In DCS you need like 2/3 of stick movement to counter the loss of weight of a single Maverick just to stay level, which is ridiculous. The F-5E has a similar weight compared to the Harrier and even less wingspan and doesn't roll around as much with asymmetric loadouts. Not even the AFC can hold the change...

I've never needed more than 1/3 stick to balance out a Maverick. Quick burst of aileron trim and I'm good. The only time I need 1/2 - 2/3 stick with one Mav is when I'm slow and/or trying to whip the plane around like it's clean.

Well, there's been the statement of a Harrier driver around that this is no issue in the real thing at all. ...

Ah, the often cited Harrier Pilot Quote.

I actually looked up the AMA (very interesting - https://old.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/8cvu6h/im_a_harrier_pilot_in_the_usmcama/) and not only did he never try the DCS Harrier, he just said it was not an issue (for him).

Of course it wasn´t because I´m certain he did trim his plane without even thinking about it. So much so that he even said he doesn´t remember where the Pitch Trim Indicator is located.

And some trimming is really all that is needed, no matter what you drop.

Me, I´m not a Harrier Pilot but I too would say it´s not an issue - at all.

I guess we´ll see alot of sad faces once the F-16 is released.

As for the OP. You take your buddy out for a ride because you are "quite good" but you deliberately concentrate on things that:

- are (known to be) Work in Progress (ASL Line, Betty)

- you lack the skill to perform it (Trimming the Plane, AAR and more)

- are perceived unrealistic while in fact they are not (trailing basket)

Really?!

A friend everyone would like to have.

I have no idea what trolling means, but this does sound alot like it :)