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"CP 9S80M1 Sborka" / Dog Ear Radar within DCS World


Rongor

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Sa-9/Sa-13/ZSU-23-4 benefice for the detection extender range of Dog Ear radar on DCS:W.

 

If you like real worlk use, check SamSimulator manual ZSU-23-4.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/2b7qtu37kz3upoy/SAMSim_docs_131010.rar

 

Correct, but note that the Sborka MUST be part of the group.

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Sa-9/Sa-13/ZSU-23-4 benefice for the detection extender range of Dog Ear radar on DCS:W.

 

If you like real worlk use, check SamSimulator manual ZSU-23-4.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/2b7qtu37kz3upoy/SAMSim_docs_131010.rar

 

 

You should add the Tunguska, Tor and OSA System. But unfortunatly our Sborka is not right simulated for TELAR (transporter erector launcher and radar) air Systems.

 

Our tunguska, Tor and OSA keep using his Radars while the Sborka is in the same Group. That is false and not right simulated.

 

Tor, Tunguska and OSA should be Radar off all the time, only using the tracking Radar for launch. Normally using first their TV target Designator for adquisition,

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You should add the Tunguska, Tor and OSA System. But unfortunatly our Sborka is not right simulated for TELAR (transporter erector launcher and radar) air Systems.

 

Our tunguska, Tor and OSA keep using his Radars while the Sborka is in the same Group. That is false and not right simulated.

 

Tor, Tunguska and OSA should be Radar off all the time, only using the tracking Radar for launch. Normally using first their TV target Designator for adquisition,

 

Tor works in AUTO mode by default in DCSW and in RL.

 

TV target Designator is MAN mode , is used for low-fly target or be jammed.

 

Tor-M1 manual said that.

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Tor works in AUTO mode by default in DCSW and in RL.

 

TV target Designator is MAN mode , is used for low-fly target or be jammed.

 

Tor-M1 manual said that.

 

The Sborka dog hear do the data link for a short range TELAR air defences. Normally is not necessary the Radar ON for these units when they are in a batterie configuration. This is the real Goal and this is not simulated in DCS World. So the main Job of this Dog Hear is not accomplished in DCS World, because the linked TELAR units remain with radar ON.


Edited by pepin1234

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Here a track and you will see what I mean. The Dog Hear of Sborka is completely inexistent Task inside DCS World.

 

You will see when I already fly the detection zone of Sborka, the other SAMs remain in non-operational state. Completely false, they should jump to combat state ready to track the target.

 

The secound point and most important, The TOR turn to combat mode only when the target is inside his detection zone, but he do turning on his own radar and locking me, wrong.

 

He must lock on me few second before launch, with radar off always. In this case his radar become the Sborka Dog Hear. TOR can do the Designation with the TV System. The Sborka should give him Azimuth and Elevation

 

Not only that. Even he can shot me at the same time he lock me, because the TOR and OSA systems have both an TV-IR target tracking system giving a stealth capability til launch moment.

Tor-Non-Datalink.trk


Edited by pepin1234

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Not only that. Even he can shot me at the same time he lock me, because the TOR and OSA systems have both an TV-IR target tracking system giving a stealth capability til launch moment.

 

Tor will never be 'stealth' when it launches missiles, TR MUST be ON while its missile is in flight.

In fact, TR MUST acquire the target first, no matter AUTO or MAN, then you can switch to TOB/AC TOB track mode.

In RL, TOB/AC TOB is used for adjusting elevation angle error while tracking low-fly targets, not for stealth attack.

TV-IR tracks β (azimuth angle) and ε (elevation angle), TR tracks D(distance) and V(velocity ).

 

When Dogear detects targets, Tor in the same group should turn to the target, radar OFF.

In DCSW, radar OFF means GREEN state, Tor will do nothing :(


Edited by L0op8ack
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Tor will never be 'stealth' when it launches missiles, TR MUST be ON while its missile is in flight.

 

I have not said that, read again. And please nobody is talking here about the TR. The main reason is the wrong reaction in a Battery of TOR and OSA with a Sborka. The Sborka is the SR of all of them. Right now we get the SR of every TELAR unit. That is wrong and not realistic.

 

In fact, TR MUST acquire the target first, no matter AUTO or MAN, then you can switch to TOB/AC TOB track mode.

In RL, TOB/AC TOB is used for adjusting elevation angle error while tracking low-fly targets.

 

I am not talking about low flight Targets. The Targets at 3000m could be easyly designated with the TV System. Setting all the System ready to Launch with just some seconds.

 

 

TV-IR tracks β (azimuth angle) and ε (elevation angle), TR tracks D(distance) and V(velocity ).

 

The Azimuth and Elevation is adquired from the Sborka via Data link and sent to every TELAR unit. Distance and Velocity is taken via TR only some seconds before the Launch.

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I am not talking about low flight Targets. The Targets at 3000m could be easyly designated with the TV System. Setting all the System ready to Launch with just some seconds.

 

The primary system is RADAR, not TV. They will engage with TV only if it becomes impossible or very difficult to engage with RADAR.

 

The Azimuth and Elevation is adquired from the Sborka via Data link and sent to every TELAR unit. Distance and Velocity is taken via TR only some seconds before the Launch.

 

That is incorrect. Distance and Velocity are measured by the SR and transmitted to the fire units, along with fire commands if appropriate. The fire unit does it's own measurement as part of it's own fire control system ... but they already know the basic relevant data of their target.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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The primary system is RADAR, not TV. They will engage with TV only if it becomes impossible or very difficult to engage with RADAR..

 

Nobody here is talking what is Primary or secondary sensor. We are talking about the inexistent and unrealistic procedure of a Battery linked with a Sborka Dog Hear.

The question is the Sborka is not doing his Job inside DCS World

 

 

 

That is incorrect. Distance and Velocity are measured by the SR and transmitted to the fire units, along with fire commands if appropriate. The fire unit does it's own measurement as part of it's own fire control system ... but they already know the basic relevant data of their target.

 

So you come to say that the needed accuracy speed and velocity to engage and guide a missile you get via SR.

 

That way US have not good SHORAD Systems :D

 

But look. Dont come here to hijack the main question.

 

Is the Sborka doing his Job??--No.

 

Do the Sborka the datalink for the TELAR Units??--No

 

Why the TELAR and SHORAD Systems not jump into combat state when the target is inside of Sborka Radar??--Because is wrong and should be fixed, specialy when you make an anti ARM battery.

 

Why all the TELAR Units Keep with Radar on when they really not Need use it with a Sborka inside the Group??-- Because this feauture is not right simulated jet


Edited by pepin1234

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Nobody here is talking what is Primary or secondary sensor. We are talking about the inexistent and unrealistic procedure of a Battery linked with a Sborka Dog Hear.

The question is the Sborka is not doing his Job inside DCS World

 

Yes we're talking primary and secondary sensors, because you're making assumptions that aren't being realistic.

You could have left it as IADS behavior, but you didn't.

 

So you come to say that the needed accuracy speed and velocity to engage and guide a missile you get via SR.

 

No, I say that the SAM operator is given a tactical picture by the SR.

 

That way US have not good SHORAD Systems :D

 

I have no idea how you ended up with 1+1=3.

 

But look. Dont come here to hijack the main question.

 

Then stop going into tangents.

 

Is the Sborka doing his Job??--No.

 

Do the Sborka the datalink for the TELAR Units??--No

 

Actually, it works as designed by the devs.

 

Why the TELAR and SHORAD Systems not jump into combat state when the target is inside of Sborka Radar??--Because is wrong and should be fixed, specialy when you make an anti ARM battery.

 

There's nothing broken, and I have no idea how you would expect an anti-ARM battery to operate with its radar shut down. The SR likely can't deal with little missiles. So once more you're making unrealistic assumptions of ... something.

 

Why all the TELAR Units Keep with Radar on when they really not Need use it with a Sborka inside the Group??-- Because this feauture is not right simulated jet

 

The simulation may not be true to real life, but again, it isn't broken. It is working as intended by the developers.

 

One day maybe there will be a more complex simulation of IADS behavior, among all the other AI that need more complex behavior.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Yes we're talking primary and secondary sensors, because you're making assumptions that aren't being realistic.

You could have left it as IADS behavior, but you didn't.

 

 

 

No, I say that the SAM operator is given a tactical picture by the SR.

 

 

 

I have no idea how you ended up with 1+1=3.

 

 

 

Then stop going into tangents.

 

 

 

Actually, it works as designed by the devs.

 

 

 

There's nothing broken, and I have no idea how you would expect an anti-ARM battery to operate with its radar shut down. The SR likely can't deal with little missiles. So once more you're making unrealistic assumptions of ... something.

 

 

 

The simulation may not be true to real life, but again, it isn't broken. It is working as intended by the developers.

 

One day maybe there will be a more complex simulation of IADS behavior, among all the other AI that need more complex behavior.

 

Look one more time I say you. Do not come here to hijack the thread like you do every day trying to convince the community that the Aim-120 is the best of the best.

 

Here we are not talking about Aim-120. Only tell us why the SHORAD Units of the group are not Aware when the enemy target are inside the Sborka radar. Have you seen my track??

 

The ARM Missiles never will reach a high Speed in the engage Radio of the SHORAD anti ARM defence for a S-300, because they were launched in a extrem Long range and of course the TOR, Tunguska and OSA will engage the ARM at this Speed.

 

 

If you like I made other track for you, then you can see the Sborka is not really doing his Job

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One more time I tell you:

 

The simulation may not be true to real life, but again, it isn't broken. It is working as intended by the developers.

 

One day maybe there will be a more complex simulation of IADS behavior, among all the other AI that need more complex behavior.

 

Look one more time I say you.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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One more time I tell you:

 

The simulation may not be true to real life, but again, it isn't broken. It is working as intended by the developers.

 

One day maybe there will be a more complex simulation of IADS behavior, among all the other AI that need more complex behavior.

 

OK. This is the only thing you need to say mate and I am sure we can understand and wait someday become better.

 

But do not try confuse us again, we are not kindergarden kids and have been enough damage for us with the A-A Missiles so...

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Look one more time I say you. Do not come here to hijack the thread like you do every day trying to convince the community that the Aim-120 is the best of the best.

 

I think the community is more confused on why you like to spread false information with every post then try to change the subject. GGTharos is usually correct or very close on any subject. The radar is working as intended by the devs.

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Some examples of the pasive TV Designator of the russian SHORAD Units. The stealthy Operation mode is no possible right now in DCS World. So that mean we are using and destroy the air defences with a relative low level Simulation, but not bad. I mean could be much more difficult destroy a medium or Long range air defence System. Which means we could not get RWR warning til the really last Moment.

 

The Sborka is really important to get the passive TV designation for every SHORAD battery.

 

Here are some media with examples. Unfortunatly I haven not found much pic, but is ok

 

 

TV Sensors for TOR and OSA-AKM:

 

Sborka with some TOR-M1

 

russiaImage9.jpg

 

Tor-M1 pasive sensor

 

Iranian+Tor-M1+(SA-15+Gauntlet)+Surface-to-Air+Missile+System+(2).jpg

 

Here the OSA-AKM pasive sensor over the Radar

 

 

full-17362-54337-_3226511.jpg

 

 

80s Picture with the pasive sensor over the Radar

 

full-17362-54632-1969vec_sa8geckocrew.jpg

 

This is a good example how a Kub System use the Information of an Early Warning Radar to destroy an Air-Target. The Designation is possible by TV sensors too, note the TV sensor beside the Kub Radar antenna. Normally the TOR and OSA-AKM will use the Sborka datalink Information to do that in a pasive mode:

 


Edited by pepin1234

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Surely Hpash from SamSimulator can explain you how work the Sa-8 TV camera system and other similar russian system.

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3755797/1

 

Sa-8 manual, in russian http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/ebooks/Osa(1991).djvu

 

Check them: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/ebooks

and them: http://www.steelbeasts.com/Downloads/p13_sectionid/320

 

To more Antiair Systems.


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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In that case, the missile was launched through the cloud deck which is why the pilot did not see it.

 

It was a ballistic/inertial launch with illumination in the last 5 seconds. TV was not involved. It is a passive system used as a backup in case the radar cannot be used, typically because of ECM. It has nothing to do with your imagined stealth attacks.

 

Stop talking about things you don't know anything about.

 

Further, the TOR doesn't need Sborka. It's own radar is superior and it can data-link with other TOR systems. Why bring an extra asset that is not needed?

 

This is a good example how a Kub System use the Information of an Early Warning Radar to destroy an Air-Target. The Designation is possible by TV sensors too, note the TV sensor beside the Kub Radar antenna. Normally the TOR and OSA-AKM will use the Sborka datalink Information to do that in a pasive mode:

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Nice Video where we can see inside a Buk launcher with the TV System on. The Buk launcher is a TELAR unit. The Buk System is more capable than the Kub, every launcher have his own TR Radar and this feature bring the avantage to allocate the launchers far away from the Search Radar unit, so the enemy never know where are the launchers and how close they are from the danger zone, been the launcher unit totally independent at the launch moment and completly stealth until few secound before the Launch procedure, so the Invader unit have few time with only possibility of defence maneuver or run away.

 

The TV System help the TELAR unit get the right elevation for the launcher unit when the target have the countermeasure on, get the right guidance against a low altitud target but also is used like a pasive sensor for tactical ambush.

 

 

At a Zone plagued of TOR and OSA SHORAD System. If we talk about a realistic environment, the invader never will get the totally SR signal of every TOR and OSA Units, because a part oh them or all the batterie will get operative only with the TR radar, like the Buk TELAR System procedure. In this case the SR will be the Sborka Dog Ear unit, but unfortunatly this Option is not available for DCS world with the Sborka inside a SHORAD group.

 


Edited by pepin1234

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Of course the Sborka Dog Ear is very important for a TOR or OSA Batterie. We have not a dedicate module for Air-defence System but if this become someday, ED should bring the Sborka the real capability when they understand is possible.

 

One Thing we should Keep in mind. We have not a second SEAD flyable aircraft, but we will. F-18 can do this Job but I hope some mounth after the F-18 become in sale and the guys enjoy enough with the F-18, then ED could bring us improvement for the Sborka.

 

I really dont want nothing right now. NO but this is not like it is and the Sborka do not his real Job. Maybe in a near future could be fixed.

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Come to think of now after reading the whole thread. Is there ANY way whatsoever in checking if a search radar (not track) is painting a hostile aircraft (except the painted aircraft of course) ? Like a function, trigger etc

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Come to think of now after reading the whole thread. Is there ANY way whatsoever in checking if a search radar (not track) is painting a hostile aircraft (except the painted aircraft of course) ? Like a function, trigger etc

 

http://wiki.hoggit.us/view/Part_2#Detection

 

Basically its a function that allows you to check specific sensor types to see if an object is detected by that sensor. As far as I know it follows the assorted rules built into the sim that govern RCS, aspect of target, LOS, and radar strength to determine if the object is detected or not. Sadly we don't have a way to tell ground AI to lock or engage specific targets.

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