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How to win BVR PvP fights?


Pencil

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I have a basic understanding of BVR and how to use the munitions of the FC3 aircraft like the F-15 and Su-27, but I never seem to come out on top of BVR PvP fights.

 

Are there any good tutorials that cover BVR and how to defeat oncoming missiles?

 

My understanding is when firing a semi active radar guided missile like the Aim-7 you should fire it and then turn your aircraft 70 degrees left or right and start deploying countermeasures but most of the time this never really works.


Edited by Pencil
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AIM-7 is semi active so you need a lock until impact. Turning away will probably break the lock and thus lets the missile fly somewhere but not where you want it. But you can do that sort of maneuvers with active-homing missiles like the AIM-120 (After they activated their radar of course).

 

Otherwise, there are tons of videos about all sorts of topics on youtube, missiles, tactics etc. included. Might be worth to browse through them real quick and pick some.

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When you fire a semi active missile you need to keep the target illuminated until the missile proximity fuse detonates on sensing the target, and you will need a hard lock on the target aircraft. When using active missiles you need to lock the target until it goes autonomous at pitbull. A common trick is to soft lock until just before pitbull, hard lock for a few seconds just before pitbull. Once you fire crank left or right to put the bandit at the edge of your radar but be sure to maintain radar lock. Once the missile goes pitbull complete your turn with your nose down to get the speed up and run because you have got to assume there is a missile inbound unless you are sure that the bandit doesn't carry active missiles. Don't get any closer than approx 18 miles, 15 at a push otherwise you will struggle to evade any active missiles inbound. If you are positive that the bandit only carries semi active missiles and you have a height advantage then putting the bandit on the nose and approx 5 to 10 degs below a line going out straight in front of your longitudinal axis will put the strongest jamming signal on him and will break the lock on older aircraft like mig 21's, 23's and 29's.(note, this works with F16 jammer, I don't know jamming pattern of the F18, I assumed it would be the same as other jets of same era are similar)

 

The F15 and SU27 will almost certainly have active missiles. Go into the fight higher than the bandit and fast. When you get the contact put the burner on and get your speed up and start a climb but not so steep as to take away the speed, speed is life! Higher and faster will give your missile a range advantage over his. Don't hard lock him until you are ready to launch your missile. Just soft lock him initially as this will keep you off his RWR and other systems. At approx 18 miles hard lock him and shoot, crank left or right (away from him or other threats) keep him locked up until pitbull which shouldn't be long, then continue to turn and get your nose down to accelerate while putting him on your tail and run for your life because you must assume that his active missile is inbound without warning, assuming he is doing the same as you. Watch your speed limitations if you are cat III. Once you are sure the missile is evaded or there wasn't launched at you, you can use your speed to gain altitude and turn back into the fight. Bear in mind that you want to turn back into the fight ASAP otherwise he will already have his nose on you when you turn if he has turned before you. A very good reason to always fly at least a pair if not 4 ship so someone has the picture at all times. This is where squads or people that regularly fly together win the day.

 

Usually in a multiplayer scenario this ballet is repeated until either (or both) combatants are killed or either breaks off the fight through being out of missiles or fuel.

 

Others in this thread have described semi active missile combat and evasion, I shan't add any further comment for fear of driving people nuts! I have answered your question based on experience in other flight sims, and concentrated on active missile engagements on the assumption that most human V human engagements would involve active missiles. I am as yet very inexperienced in any DCS modules, and servers and it would appear in later posts on this thread that possibly SARH missile engagements are more common.

 

Its an extensive subject but hopefully this very small snippet will give you the right idea and help you to survive a bit better in the BVR environment.


Edited by crowebar
Criticism later in this thread

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Wow, that's a pretty good explanation. I've already have an idea of where I'm going wrong, I'm always at a height disadvantage, the bandit is usually above me and can fire earlier since the missile isn't fighting too much with gravity. As for the types of missiles, the PvP servers that I usually fly on are DDCS and the Blue Flag server which have a ban on Active Radar missiles.

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When you fire a semi active missile you need to keep the target illuminated until the missile goes autonomous at pitbull so once you fire crank left or right to put the bandit at the edge of your radar but be sure to maintain radar lock. Once the missile goes pitbull complete your turn with your nose down to get the speed up and run because you have got to assume there is a missile inbound unless you are sure that the bandit doesn't carry active missiles. Don't get any closer than approx 18 miles, 15 at a push otherwise you will struggle to evade any active missiles inbound. If you are positive that the bandit only carries semi active missiles and you have a height advantage then putting the bandit on the nose and approx 5 to 10 degs below a line going out straight in front of your longitudinal axis will put the strongest jamming signal on him and will break the lock on older aircraft like mig 21's, 23's and 29's.

 

The F15 and SU27 will almost certainly have active missiles. Go into the fight higher than the bandit and fast. When you get the contact put the burner on and get your speed up and start a climb but not so steep as to take away the speed, speed is life! Higher and faster will give your missile a range advantage over his. Don't hard lock him until you are ready to launch your missile. Just soft lock him initially as this will keep you off his RWR and other systems. At approx 18 miles hard lock him and shoot, crank left or right (away from him or other threats) keep him locked up until pitbull which shouldn't be long, then continue to turn and get your nose down to accelerate while putting him on your tail and run for your life because you must assume that his active missile is inbound without warning, assuming he is doing the same as you. Watch your speed limitations if you are cat III. Once you are sure the missile is evaded or there wasn't launched at you, you can use your speed to gain altitude and turn back into the fight. Bear in mind that you want to turn back into the fight ASAP otherwise he will already have his nose on you when you turn if he has turned before you. A very good reason to always fly at least a pair if not 4 ship so someone has the picture at all times. This is where squads or people that regularly fly together win the day.

 

Usually in a multiplayer scenario this ballet is repeated until either (or both) combatants are killed or either breaks off the fight through being out of missiles or fuel.

 

Its an extensive subject but hopefully this very small snippet will give you the right idea and help you to survive a bit better in the BVR environment.

 

 

Damn i got so rusted at Air combat, i was so sure semi-active (SARH) needed to be kept on lock until impact and AMRAAM where the ones to be self tracking once it goes pitbull... i need to refresh myself for when it comes onto the Hornet.

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You're right, semi-active radar homing (SARH) are the "Fox 1" type which do not emit radar energy and rely solely on reflections from the guiding platform. Example AIM-7.

 

AIM-120 is an active radar homing (ARH), "Fox 3", missile in the terminal phase. In the initial phase it is inertial with optional command link updates from the guiding platform. In no situation is the AIM-120 SARH.

 

PD radars suffer in look down and have to filter out the ground coming to them at the speed they are going toward it. This chunk of radial speeds removed is where you want to hide. Assuming notch is +-60 knots and you're doing 600 you want to be within +-5 degrees of beaming to reduce your radial velocity sufficiently. Radars also coast their track and still illuminate where you would be extrapolated. After that a SARH missile should be defeated. How accurately this is simulated in DCS who knows.

 

The primary defense against missiles, SARH or ARH, is to defeat them kinematically. You turn around and run the other way such that the missile cannot reach you. Any technique that involves closing within the turn and leave distance is inherently dangerous.

 

For missiles which require guidance after launch, give the best kinematic advantage before launch and minimize your closure during the guidance phase. After launch there is little benefit to driving at the target as it only improves his missile's kinematics. Turn as much as possible while continuing guidance while slowing but retaining good turn performance for the escape maneuver.

 

Escape maneuver is usually a maximum performance descending turn to place the threat behind and extending using maximum energy principles. Often this is achieving M0.9 in a moderate dive followed by a reversal to climb at this superior specific power. If going supersonic traverse the M0.9-1.1 zone quickly. It is better to climb at M0.9 than it is to struggle level at M0.99. The thick air lower and descending portion will pose problems for the missile energetically. When the missile is coasting nearing intercept it won't be able to follow your transition to climb.

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if you are equipped with SARH missiles you can mostly forget about BVR kills in FC3. your kills may be with your BVR missiles (relatively rarely) but will take place at WVR distances (2-7nm) if you have AMRAAMs you can theoretically achieve BVR kills at 10nm~ depending on your altitude, his altitude and closure speed (sum of your and his speed) but mostly you will get kills in merge at ~7nm as everyone flies around on the deck, lowering the range to a WVR competition in most cases.

 

 

strategy is:

 

 

SARH:

shoot, crank to gimbal limit, rotate through (turn nose on) fire again, crank, fire again crank etc; repeat until dead or forced permanently defensive (or rare case win) if you are fighting a AIM-120 equipped fighter and the target is forward hemisphere on you you must skate or break LOS before 7nm as if you do not you will eat an AMRAAM. if you can survive merge, you can generally win WVR (assuming sukhoi) if you skate (IE, run away) you can run away. for a limited distance.

 

 

 

outnumbering allows you to be more aggressive. surround them and the unengaged (IE, rear-side hemisphere on bandit) can press while the forward hemisphere guys bail to avoid AMRAAM.

 

 

fox3 fighter: get to RTR and fire AMRAAM, support and then skate. fire lots of missiles as you want to avoid merge. get tons of kills mostly as your missile is generally far better in every way than most fox1 fighters. laugh (maniacally)

 

 

realistically speaking you should be flying high to maximize the kinetic range of your missiles, granted this may be a bad strategy as for whatever reason missiles don't have a great deal of range and so flying on the deck and trying to minimize opponent range against you (and LOS against you) may be effective.

 

 

tl;dr BVR kills are mostly not going to happen. maximize advantage going into WVR is the purpose of BVR currently in DCS.

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Jabbers has a few good videos

 

 

This combat article on mudspike for the F-15 is also a great read.

 

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Why take advice from amateurs when you can get it from professionals?

 

 

 

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-825.pdf is the all weather intercept training manual for advanced flight training. The USN uses this training prior to sending their pilots off to Fleet Replacement Squadrons where they learn advanced follow-on tactics. It covers a wide variety of subjects including MRM and SRM employment, section employment in SRA and 2vX, and generally how to win at BVR. I highly recommend you read through all of it.

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Damn i got so rusted at Air combat, i was so sure semi-active (SARH) needed to be kept on lock until impact...

You do. They have no onboard radar transmitter.


Edited by Ironhand

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  • ED Team
When you fire a semi active missile you need to keep the target illuminated until the missile goes autonomous at pitbull so once you fire crank left or right to put the bandit at the edge of your radar but be sure to maintain radar lock. Once the missile goes pitbull complete your turn with your nose down to get the speed up and run because you have got to assume there is a missile inbound unless you are sure that the bandit doesn't carry active missiles. Don't get any closer than approx 18 miles, 15 at a push otherwise you will struggle to evade any active missiles inbound. If you are positive that the bandit only carries semi active missiles and you have a height advantage then putting the bandit on the nose and approx 5 to 10 degs below a line going out straight in front of your longitudinal axis will put the strongest jamming signal on him and will break the lock on older aircraft like mig 21's, 23's and 29's.

 

The F15 and SU27 will almost certainly have active missiles. Go into the fight higher than the bandit and fast. When you get the contact put the burner on and get your speed up and start a climb but not so steep as to take away the speed, speed is life! Higher and faster will give your missile a range advantage over his. Don't hard lock him until you are ready to launch your missile. Just soft lock him initially as this will keep you off his RWR and other systems. At approx 18 miles hard lock him and shoot, crank left or right (away from him or other threats) keep him locked up until pitbull which shouldn't be long, then continue to turn and get your nose down to accelerate while putting him on your tail and run for your life because you must assume that his active missile is inbound without warning, assuming he is doing the same as you. Watch your speed limitations if you are cat III. Once you are sure the missile is evaded or there wasn't launched at you, you can use your speed to gain altitude and turn back into the fight. Bear in mind that you want to turn back into the fight ASAP otherwise he will already have his nose on you when you turn if he has turned before you. A very good reason to always fly at least a pair if not 4 ship so someone has the picture at all times. This is where squads or people that regularly fly together win the day.

 

Usually in a multiplayer scenario this ballet is repeated until either (or both) combatants are killed or either breaks off the fight through being out of missiles or fuel.

 

Its an extensive subject but hopefully this very small snippet will give you the right idea and help you to survive a bit better in the BVR environment.

 

 

Su-27 doesn't have active missiles in DCS

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When you fire a semi active missile you need to keep the target illuminated until the missile goes autonomous at pitbull so once you fire crank left or right to put the bandit at the edge of your radar but be sure to maintain radar lock. Once the missile goes pitbull[...]

SARH (like AIM-7) does not go autonomous/pitbull - keep lock until hit. Only ARH (like AIM-120) does and there are counters for pitbull and reach time in the F-15C's HUD.

 

Don't get any closer than approx 18 miles, 15 at a push otherwise you will struggle to evade any active missiles inbound.
It's a safe range for survival but poor range for a kill. So prepare to waste a lot of missiles.

 

If you are positive that the bandit only carries semi active missiles and you have a height advantage then putting the bandit on the nose and approx 5 to 10 degs below a line going out straight in front of your longitudinal axis will put the strongest jamming signal on him and will break the lock on older aircraft like mig 21's, 23's and 29's.
What jamming are you talking about? Are you confusing things for notching?

 

The F15 and SU27 will almost certainly have active missiles.
F-15C - yes, but Su-27 doesn't carry ARH missiles - only J-11A does. Or do you mean heaters as "active"?

 

must assume that his active missile is inbound without warning
If it's active radar homing then you will have a warning. Maybe you're talking about IR guided missiles - no warning then.

 

Overall good advices but I feel the strong need to correct as to not confuse the readers and the OP.

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in the Russian aircraft don't forget the r27 T

 

in BVR fire one of those first before you lock them up with the radar and fire a r27 R

 

then if they turn away from your radar missile (to notch) they will show their hot exhaust to the IR head on the T you launched first.

 

make them face radar and IR missiles in BVR.

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When you fire a semi active missile you need to keep the target illuminated until the missile goes autonomous at pitbull so once you fire crank left or right to put the bandit at the edge of your radar but be sure to maintain radar lock. Once the missile goes pitbull complete your turn with your nose down to get the speed up and run because you have got to assume there is a missile inbound unless you are sure that the bandit doesn't carry active missiles. Don't get any closer than approx 18 miles, 15 at a push otherwise you will struggle to evade any active missiles inbound. If you are positive that the bandit only carries semi active missiles and you have a height advantage then putting the bandit on the nose and approx 5 to 10 degs below a line going out straight in front of your longitudinal axis will put the strongest jamming signal on him and will break the lock on older aircraft like mig 21's, 23's and 29's.

 

The F15 and SU27 will almost certainly have active missiles. Go into the fight higher than the bandit and fast. When you get the contact put the burner on and get your speed up and start a climb but not so steep as to take away the speed, speed is life! Higher and faster will give your missile a range advantage over his. Don't hard lock him until you are ready to launch your missile. Just soft lock him initially as this will keep you off his RWR and other systems. At approx 18 miles hard lock him and shoot, crank left or right (away from him or other threats) keep him locked up until pitbull which shouldn't be long, then continue to turn and get your nose down to accelerate while putting him on your tail and run for your life because you must assume that his active missile is inbound without warning, assuming he is doing the same as you. Watch your speed limitations if you are cat III. Once you are sure the missile is evaded or there wasn't launched at you, you can use your speed to gain altitude and turn back into the fight. Bear in mind that you want to turn back into the fight ASAP otherwise he will already have his nose on you when you turn if he has turned before you. A very good reason to always fly at least a pair if not 4 ship so someone has the picture at all times. This is where squads or people that regularly fly together win the day.

 

Usually in a multiplayer scenario this ballet is repeated until either (or both) combatants are killed or either breaks off the fight through being out of missiles or fuel.

 

Its an extensive subject but hopefully this very small snippet will give you the right idea and help you to survive a bit better in the BVR environment.

 

NO. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

People confidently giving out incorrect information drives me nuts.

 

Semi Actives (SARH) does not turn pitbull, that's why they're semi active. they require aircraft guidance till impact, however as OP wrote, you can still turn 70 degrees to the side because this is still within the gimbal limits of the Hornet radar (60 degrees for F-15).

 

Crank, dive and pump out lots of chaff. Then after a bit, make a cross turn where you turn back to crank the other direction, but do it quickly, and keep your burner on.

 

Active radar guided like Aim-120 requires, guidance until the missile is pitbull, but it is not through radar illumination but rather through datalink telling the missile where the bandit is to improve the intercept course. once close enough it'll go active and use its own radar and at this stage you can drop lock.

 

Su-27's don't have Active radar guided missiles, as it cannot carry R-77. The Chinese variant the J-11A can however. and same with MiG-29S (but not 29A)

 

Please don't spread incorrect information if you're not sure what you're talking about Crowebar ffs man.

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You win BVR fights by setting yourself up to survive. Situational awareness (SA) is the biggest factor, most people I see online commit into a fight and get killed by someone who they never knew was there. Before you take the fight you should try to understand how many friendlies you have, where they are relative to you and whether you can count on them to do anything at all (usually not). What's equally important is to keep track of where bandits are, which ones are dangerous, and where the fight is taking place.

 

If you're over enemy ground outnumbered it's better to extend out than to try and fight it out while the other bandits will be a step ahead at collapsing on you. You can also help this by choosing the direction you fight. At the expense of not flying straight at the enemy you can set yourself up to have a clear direction of engagement and also a clear window where you can get out if necessary. Generally i.e. in an F-15 you want to start thinking of gettig out once you're below 8k lbs of fuel and latest at 6k. This will ensure you can burn away at M1.5+ with a clean jet that nobody will be able to follow and if your exit window was set up correctly you should have no issues getting home. Make no mistake, people online will chase you full gate for 10 minutes STT locked with no regard to their surroundings or their ability to ever go home.

 

The other typical mistake is going tunnelvision on far bandits ( > 30 miles) and overpreparing your fight. Your priority is searching for things right in front of you where they can pose a lethal threat by hiding extending, notching or behind terrain. Maintain SA of far bandits but focus on this and very often you'll find people hiding right under your nose, whether by accident or by good teamwork does not matter much. Even inside 20 miles of the bandit it can be crucial to keep searching for others if you're confident enough you can get back to your original target in time.

 

The duel is just a small part of the work. What I would highlight here is that ARH fights you can usually get away clean and feel quite safe. SARH duels on the other hand are usually a dance to the death and it's not uncommon that both of you will die. If you're running around with SARH I would generally not recommend taking fair fights, especially if you're not experienced. Try to ambush people, have energetic superiority, etc. Beyond all the fighting and tactics what's one of the most important things is to be able to quickly realize what's going on and react on it. Knowing how far you can push it will help you immediately decide whether you can continue fighting in a given scenario or it's done but you can still get out of there if you go for it. Of course if you're too close already then the decision is already made and you're going to have to fight it out. In the end it all comes from experience.

 

Most important of all, use Tacview.


Edited by <Blaze>
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SARH (like AIM-7) does not go autonomous/pitbull - keep lock until hit. Only ARH (like AIM-120) does and there are counters for pitbull and reach time in the F-15C's HUD.

 

It's a safe range for survival but poor range for a kill. So prepare to waste a lot of missiles.

 

What jamming are you talking about? Are you confusing things for notching?

 

F-15C - yes, but Su-27 doesn't carry ARH missiles - only J-11A does. Or do you mean heaters as "active"?

 

If it's active radar homing then you will have a warning. Maybe you're talking about IR guided missiles - no warning then.

 

Overall good advices but I feel the strong need to correct as to not confuse the readers and the OP.

 

Thanks for correcting my post, I appreciate your polite feedback. I am quite new to DCS and it's forums and am quickly learning that it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to post something and remove all doubt. :thumbup:

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Thanks for correcting my post, I appreciate your polite feedback. I am quite new to DCS and it's forums and am quickly learning that it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to post something and remove all doubt. :thumbup:

 

Don't worry you're not alone, YT is full of DCS bs these days. :D

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Please don't spread incorrect information if you're not sure what you're talking about Crowebar ffs man.

 

I thought I did know what I was talking about Essah. My main error is in starting my post with the words Semi Active and then describing the active missile, but that's what happens when you post late at night and don't re- read it before posting. I didn't mean semi activeI have edited the post to correct that.

 

I was 23 years a weapons technician in the Air Force including 6 years instructing Tornado F3 weapons systems including both active and semi-active missile component parts, how those component parts work right through from missile site storage to being loaded onto the aircraft, SMS (avionics) setup & testing. Component operation and data exchange during the launch sequence, launch, missile flight including in-flight target tracking and missile steering towards that target, proximity sensing & fusing, and of course warhead operation. So I think that I do know what I am talking about with these missiles, it was just an honest mistake in compiling my reply.

 

I also taught Tornado GR2 & GR4 weapons systems over the same period, so I also know my mud moving stuff. This as well as being time served on flight lines, armouries and god forsaken places around the world over the years on a variety of aircraft.

 

Anything else that I have mentioned is experience gained in flying the F16 in Falcon for many many years, mainly online in a squad. I can see from other replies in this thread that DCS is actually quit different from Falcon and so a lesson learned here is to keep quite as you suggest until I have some DCS experience under my belt. I have edited my first post so it reads as bit better. Thanks for your advice.

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What jamming are you talking about? Are you confusing things for notching?

 

No, notching while flying a sine wave is a good defense against both semi active missiles and sam's.

 

This works with the F16 jammer in Falcon against some of the earlier migs liked the mig-23 for instance. As other jets have the same sort of jamming signal emission pattern beaming out to the front and rear, I assumed (without specific knowledge) that the F18 would be the same. With the F16 there is no jamming signal out to the side, so if you are notching you may as well turn your jammer off. Also in Falcon you would have your jammer off before you got within burn through range as it is then just giving your position away and acting as a beacon for active missiles with 'home on jam'.

 

Again, I don't know if any of that is modelled in DCS.

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