Why so many keys for one action?

Hi guys.

Got the 109, CA and the awesome Mig21 today, but I'm really disapointed with the input settings of the Mig21.

Why do we have to set two keys insted of one to up and down the gear like on the other modules? And two more keys for turn on the radar. I really don't get it this layout and and I run out of buttons on my Warthog stick and my CH Pro Throttle.

I don't know nothing about programing with CH Manager or T.A.R.G.E.T, but I think it´s not necessary doing such work, cause I think it's way more simple and saves time to set more commands in one key only.

Is there any way to solve this? Cause in my case if don't, my Mig21 will only be serving as a target.

It is suppose to mimic the real plane... it's true other modules offer the alternative to bind simpler commands... but... the idea behind this module was to be very realistic.

My opinion is that this plane made with FC3 style controls... is very boring very quick. It is very entertaining just because yo need to understand all the controls... having script like controls that replace whole procedures... just removes parts of the simulation and in the end you will feel spoiled and yo will abandon it.

Try to prioritize needed commands and then for others try to remember keyboard commands.

Here is a picture I have on my kneeboard in Mig21 with my controls... maybe you can use it as a inspiration... you have complete different setup.

It stems from a desire to create a realistic module for DCS.

Because the raising the landing gear require more than one action and thought, to prevent pilots from raising it too early.

I have the safety switch, landing gear three position switch, radar off/stby/on and radar ground clutter function mapped to my WH throttle. No problems. This was done with a mod which is stickied in the MiG-21 forum.

My opinion is that this plane made with FC3 style controls... is very boring very quick. It is very entertaining just because yo need to understand all the controls... having script like controls that replace whole procedures... just removes parts of the simulation and in the end you will feel spoiled and yo will abandon it.

To be honest I disagree somewhat. I found flying the plane a chore, and god help you if you don't have a full HOTAS. Then I made some autohotkey scripts and now I can fly it just as easily on a logitech Extreme 3D as my X52 pro and other systems. For me the extra controls just get in the way of actually using and employing the systems. Since then it's become one of my favourite and most flown modules.

It's all well and good that the real plane has several actions to raise the landing gear and whatever else, but the differences in ergonomics and memorisation between a flip switch with 3 positions and being able to interact with it by hand instead of mouse, are already quite different and then having 3 separate keyboard commands when a toggle would be fine for many of them... doesn't really enhance the simulation or gameplay for me, it does just what you suggest it does - create more busywork.

I have to agree with the original poster that the excessive separation of keybinds is rather annoying. Theoretically it should be beneficial for making a sim pit or the like - and certainly it made the autohotkey script a lot simpler because I don't need to care about what state things are in and just tell it to go directly to a position, but using them directly is a pain.

I have to agree with the original poster that the excessive separation of keybinds is rather annoying. Theoretically it should be beneficial for making a sim pit or the like - and certainly it made the autohotkey script a lot simpler because I don't need to care about what state things are in and just tell it to go directly to a position, but using them directly is a pain.

Exactly, that's the point. I Think now is too late to do such modifications for the Fishbed, but please Leatherneck, think about next modules. Not everyone have the intention to build a sim cockpit, I do really love DCS hardcore style, I never played the arcade mode but as I said I think that some inputs can be easily set in one key.

And zaelu, thanks for the help, I'll try to do something like you did.:joystick:

Merry Christmas to you all

you can press Lalt+Lshift+c in order to use mouse to click the button on the panel.

It's very interesting to click,click,click the switch and knob.

This has been a topic for discussion since release.

Some users like the added realism with, some users don't.

However, looking at it from a technical standpoint, there are only a few commands you could remove (the gear down lock would be one of them) without losing functionality. The gear up/neutral/down, the radar off/standby/on and all the other multiple key commands are quit important to the simulation because they change the behaviour of the systems.

I am personally happy how it is now, I am doing lot's off stuff with the mouse anyway.

When I bind my buttons to my hardware I always think about it, how difficult would it be to operate the control in a real situation?

The gear lever? Easy to find by just taking a quick glance. Therefore it will be mapped to a button.

Flaps? Easy to find again. To buttons they go.

The radar off/standby/on switch? Small, not really "easy to feel" switch. Therefore I will operate it with the mouse.

However, looking at it from a technical standpoint, there are only a few commands you could remove (the gear down lock would be one of them) without losing functionality. The gear up/neutral/down, the radar off/standby/on and all the other multiple key commands are quit important to the simulation because they change the behaviour of the systems.

There are plenty of multi-position switches/knobs in other modules that can be cycled through all their states with one key. I think that's what people are looking for. There's no reason at all why e.g. AA mode/AG mode has to be two keys, although the option is nice if you have physical switches that send a different button on up vs. on down.

There are plenty of multi-position switches/knobs in other modules that can be cycled through all their states with one key. I think that's what people are looking for. There's no reason at all why e.g. AA mode/AG mode has to be two keys, although the option is nice if you have physical switches that send a different button on up vs. on down.

I get your point for those switches. There are benefits and disadvantages to both approaches I guess.

However, just FYI, you can use a normal switch as you described when you edit your: DCS World\Mods\aircraft\MiG-21BIS\Input\joystick\default.lua

For example, you can make the airbrake a one state switch with a line like this:

{down=device_commands.Airbrakes,up=device_commands.Airbrakes,cockpit_device_id=devices.AIRBRAKE,value_down=1.0,value_up=0.0,name='Alternate  Airbrakes On',category='Flight Controls'},

If you look through that default.lua you can quickly figure out the commands you want to adjust.

I agree that the toggle option would make it much more user friendly & easier ie. airbrake toggle on/off =1 button, don't see any point in having 2 buttons for on & off.

Or the safety caps that protect some buttons. In reality you would flip them open and presse the button in a single movement, without thinking. But if you want to map the button to a HOTAS button, this approach is a PITA.

But yeah, we had that discussion already - and I took from it that, basically, such simplifications were too "arcardey" for most of the folks here ....

I like realistic like this MIG and even hope every DCS models can reach this standard. personally haha

I like realistic like this MIG and even hope every DCS models can reach this standard. personally haha

If you want it realistic then you should get rid of all the key-bindings all together & only use joystick & rudder ha ha.

Please Leatherneck give us the toggle option, at least for us that wants them, (the rest can still have the on-off option) it's a real pain to assign all the commands & remember them:helpsmilie:

If you want it realistic then you should get rid of all the key-bindings all together & only use joystick & rudder ha ha.

 

Please Leatherneck give us the toggle option, at least for us that wants them, (the rest can still have the on-off option) it's a real pain to assign all the commands & remember them:helpsmilie:

Too late I think, they would need to do a lot of programing again.

It is a bit annoying I find and also very unrealistic I find. Let's face it, clicking cockpit switches with a mouse is a lot slower and harder than reaching over and flipping an actual switch. If you have to use your mouse and click anything in the cockpit once the engines are running, you're doing it wrong. Everything should be keyboard shortcuts or on your stick for maximum realism.

Those button presses on both devices should mimic the real aircraft as closely as possible. As such, if there is one button/switch/lever in the real thing, then there should be a single button that cycles through its positions in a logical manner. If the function has multiple buttons/switches/levers in the real plane, then this should also be reflected in our button/key presses. The flaps are a good example of 3 buttons for basically one thing. Safety covers should automatically be removed, as once again, these are part of the basic button/switch/lever.

Whether or not it is too late to make these changes is another matter, but moving forwards, the setup the MiG-21 uses should not be repeated.

Too late I think, they would need to do a lot of programing again.

I would not write that off so quickly, tbh. These compla...suggestions are not exactly new and the MiG is still in beta.

Let's face it, clicking cockpit switches with a mouse is a lot slower and harder than reaching over and flipping an actual switch.

I agree with this. Now I'll say I like having a clickable cockpit and while the MiG has a certain workload when it comes to switchology, I'm OK with it for the most part.

However clickable cockpit is not the end all of realism. It's an approximation. A stand in for a real cockpit, which most people don't have. That DCS caters to people with full cockpits is great and it's something I want to take advantage of some day, but I also understand that not everyone is in that boat.

Seeing as mouse clicking is an approximation, I don't see a problem with an alternative approximation, such as being able to toggle switches with a single key.

Those button presses on both devices should mimic the real aircraft as closely as possible. As such, if there is one button/switch/lever in the real thing, then there should be a single button that cycles through its positions in a logical manner.

Agreed. Going to A2G to A2A mode has two options and uses the same switch. It should use one switch/button on your HOTAS to.

Any information, or if someone has a pre-done .lau that changes this for all the applicable functions would be appreciated.

The new bf109 and fw190 have multiple ways to configure commands to systems.

For example they have gear toggle command but also separate gear up and gear Down commans. So is for many other systems and those choices are very very good to exists.

I hope Leatherneck will try to add these options to mig21 also so everyone could enjoh it.

yeah...some of this set up just simply shows a lack of common sense...an up down function for 3 way switches...toggles for 2 way and left right for knobs with multi functions for starters. Don't get me started on the manual.....

I don't know how anyone can argue that "canopy open" and "canopy close" should be 2 separate commands .

In general I think the commands should be condensed some

The canopy open close buttons has some reason. After all to close the canopy in "full sim mode" with the mouse you need to click on the metal stick above winshield frame while for open it after you unlock it you need to touch on the frame on the left.

This means 2 things:

1. The actual open and close are... thing done a bit diferent... is not like in Sabre where you just move a switch in front or in back.

2. When the cockpit is programmed and the lua files are laid down... the clickabledata.lua file where the 2 different clicks are defined are then used as templates for the keyboard or joystick commands.

However... as I was saying in previous post, a second backup command could be programmed to be just simple toggle... it could be made to include the locking and sealing of the canopy also. Like a script... Like the Cheat for autostart.

Yeah... those not very realistic commands should be all grouped in "cheat" (I don't know why that derogative term is used :) ) menu but be very "legal" on servers as they are just some simplifications for people that need them for different reasons... be it lack of buttons on HOTAS or lack of interest for such... nit picking.

For example, for Bf109K4 I have some buttons assigned as the simplified toggle and for some as the complex one with On and Off... etc... The ones that are the simplified are due to both causes mentioned above... I simply don't have enough ergonomically (imho) placed buttons on my HOTAS and/or I don't find them attractive enough in the complex form. And is very nice from ED for providing both variants.

If you look on previous page at my attached picture you could see I have an Encoder that can be turned counter clockwise or clockwise assigned to "weapons selector".... it actually doesn't work because although it mimics perfectly the actual realistic weapon selector from Mig-21 that can be turned clockwise or counter clockwise... Leatherneck just mapped 11 (ELEVEN!!) buttons for each individual place that rotary switch can be placed... A bit baffling for me.

Also... we can't say that is a stubbornness strive for full realistic simulation that drive LNS to make things like this because if you look at the differential braking logic that was toned down and made a bit messy for some for the sake of some simplification... is not that.

Hi guys.

 

Got the 109, CA and the awesome Mig21 today, but I'm really disapointed with the input settings of the Mig21.

 

Why do we have to set two keys insted of one to up and down the gear like on the other modules? And two more keys for turn on the radar. I really don't get it this layout and and I run out of buttons on my Warthog stick and my CH Pro Throttle.

 

I don't know nothing about programing with CH Manager or T.A.R.G.E.T, but I think it´s not necessary doing such work, cause I think it's way more simple and saves time to set more commands in one key only.

 

Is there any way to solve this? Cause in my case if don't, my Mig21 will only be serving as a target.

GriffonBR, there could be ways to save a few buttonpresses, but it's a bit cryptic and i just did a small test on it just now. Maybe others which know LUA well can do more research on this. What i did was to modify the default.lua file in :

\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\MiG-21BIS\Input\MiG-21\keyboard

In that file there is a instruction:

combos={{key='G',reformers={'RShift'}}},down= device_commands.GearHandleFixator, cockpit_device_id = devices.GEARS,value_down=1.0,name='Gears Handle Lock released',category='Gears, brakes and chute'}

If this instruction is modified to:

{combos={{key='G',reformers={'RShift'}}},down= device_commands.GearHandleFixator,up= device_commands.GearLever,cockpit_device_id= devices.GEARS,value_down=1.0,value_up=1.0,name= 'Gears Handle Lock released + Gear Up',category='Gears, brakes and chute'}

What happens in game is that when you press RShift + G, the lock will open and the gears will retract automatically. So less buttonpressing while doing a takeoff. Kind of a macro. The safety lock can't be operated now alone, but thats another matter...It's easy to mess up the files with this so do backups before editing. Attached is how it will look in Controls page and a sample default.lua for this spesific function. Backup original file and try the attached one. While in cockpit, view the gearlevel panel while pressing RShift + G. This functionality is of course also possible using external software included with the HOTAS, but if this is not acceptable or not possible, then the above is another way.

Again, make sure to backup the original default.lua in that directory first! To go back, copy back the original file.

-

default.lua

Hi guys.

 

Got the 109, CA and the awesome Mig21 today, but I'm really disapointed with the input settings of the Mig21.

 

Why do we have to set two keys insted of one to up and down the gear like on the other modules? And two more keys for turn on the radar. I really don't get it this layout and and I run out of buttons on my Warthog stick and my CH Pro Throttle.

 

I don't know nothing about programing with CH Manager or T.A.R.G.E.T, but I think it´s not necessary doing such work, cause I think it's way more simple and saves time to set more commands in one key only.

 

Is there any way to solve this? Cause in my case if don't, my Mig21 will only be serving as a target.

I can follow people who are complaining about 11 switches for the weapon selector. Might be cool to only use an up/down variant.

But we should draw a line when it comes to things like complex system modeling. There is a good reason why you have to do 3 steps to secure your cockpit. There is also a good reason why a real 21 pilot have to flip at least three switches to sucessfully retract the gear. The radar has also more than a simple off and on function.

If you forget something you will pay the price. One may be loss of pressured air the other one the loss of consciousness at high alt or the loss of your radar due to mismanagement.

Especially when flying multiplayer, it should have an effect if you can master your aircraft.

So a simple "G" to retract and another "G" press to extend the gear may be ok for game mode but if you are flying the sim and especially online there should be some kind of common rules.

Just my 2 cents

There is also a good reason why a real 21 pilot have to flip at least three switches to sucessfully retract the gear.

 

...

 

So a simple "G" to retract and another "G" press to extend the gear may be ok for game mode but if you are flying the sim and especially online there should be some kind of common rules.

 

Just my 2 cents

Except the real MiG-21 has a single 3 position lever for that, not 3 separate buttons/levers. Your argument is invalid as it's based on a false premise.