JCamel Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 You have nothing to thank him for. RF exercises put these aircraft on the same, not opposite sides. The article is bunk :) Ha ha. Funny how there are no 'bunk' articles or even rumours about the F-22 ever beating the Typhoon in a dogfight. If the telegraph pole takes off after you, it is not a telegraph pole. Link to comment
JCamel Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Max reheat at Empty weight: F-15C= 1.79, F-22= 1.61, Typhoon= 1.63 Going off wikipedia yes but during summer 2000 I was on a tour of Warton as an under-graduate and an engineer quoted the empty weight of the Typhoon as 9 tons. I don't know if that has changed but I strongly suspect that there's more than a 4,000lb weight differential between the F-15 and Typhoon for a variety of reasons. If the telegraph pole takes off after you, it is not a telegraph pole. Link to comment
GGTharos Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Which would be because the F-22 gets into 'fights' with USAF ANG F-15C units, and Red Flag's red-air. Not Typhoons - and that you can probably verify :) Ha ha. Funny how there are no 'bunk' articles or even rumours about the F-22 ever beating the Typhoon in a dogfight. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment
JCamel Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Seems to be reasonably legit to me. Ho-hum: http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123306755 http://www.eielson.af.mil/library/redflag-alaska.asp http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/06/ap-air-force-eielson-red-flag-exercises-underway-061312/ So, the Red Flag definitely happened, the Eurofighters were definitely there, as were the F-22s and the German guy was definitely surprised and pleased by the performance of the Typhoons. http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_story/18965345/article-Red-Flag-exercises-ramps-up-at-Eielson-Air-Force-Base?instance=home_news_window_left_top_1 During other exercises, pilots go head-to-head in simulated aerial combat, practice dropping non-exploding bombs on targets and dealing with the threat of simulated surface-to-air missiles. Edited July 20, 2012 by JCamel If the telegraph pole takes off after you, it is not a telegraph pole. Link to comment
GGTharos Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Seems to be reasonably legit to me. Ho-hum: Oh, how weak. http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123306755 http://www.eielson.af.mil/library/redflag-alaska.asp http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/06/ap-air-force-eielson-red-flag-exercises-underway-061312/ So, the Red Flag definitely happened, the Eurofighters were definitely there, as were the F-22sYep. Is this surprising? and the German guy was definitely surprised and pleased by the performance of the Typhoons.I can't see this being surprising either. On the other hand, the whole F-22 v Typhoon thing? Weak. Seriously, badly weak. I suggest you read those same articles again and note which one mentions F-22 v Tiffys and just how much of that seems like copy-paste from elsewhere. Compare with what the other articles say about the RF's purpose. This isn't the first time we've seen such x v y silliness, won't be the last. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment
JCamel Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Let's see. The german guy mentioned in the other article was there, his Typhoons were there, the F-22s were there and they simulated head-to-head aerial combat. There seems to be stories about the Typhoon winning the dogfight elements but none regarding the F-22 winning them. How odd. I think I'll leave it there for now. Edited July 20, 2012 by JCamel If the telegraph pole takes off after you, it is not a telegraph pole. Link to comment
Vault Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 "Even so, I'm surprised about the performance of both our jets and our crews. Our guys and our systems are ready to face the challenges ahead." This quote certainly does sound interesting. It's a very confident statement to make. Regardless of who fought what, that pilot projects alot of confidence in the EF. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment
JCamel Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 "Even so, I'm surprised about the performance of both our jets and our crews. Our guys and our systems are ready to face the challenges ahead." This quote certainly does sound interesting. It's a very confident statement to make. Regardless of who fought what, that pilot projects alot of confidence in the EF. It's not the sort of comment made by someone who just got their arse handed to them for sure. If the telegraph pole takes off after you, it is not a telegraph pole. Link to comment
Corrigan Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 This disussion is pointless. Everyone knows VIGGEN AM BEST AERPLAIN. Win10 x64 | SSDs | i5 2500K @ 4.4 GHz | 16 GB RAM | GTX 970 | TM Warthog HOTAS | Saitek pedals | TIR5 Link to comment
GGTharos Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Ok - it did happen; I managed to find confirmation from the other side. Seems to explain a lot of stuff, and it's totally classic: Farnborough 2012: “Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch” Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska - It's a sales pitch quoted from unnamed sources (to help promote EF2000 sales at the event). I do believe each side had a share of gunsite pics and I would be disappointed if the Tiffy was not the best dogfighter a Raptor ever comes up against. The Tiffy was made with awesome close in capabilities. Here's a detailed statement from a named source that gives alot of concessions in terms of air combat to the F-22. Col Pfeiffer summed up: 'Its unique capabilities are overwhelming from our first impressions in terms of modern air combat, but as soon as you get to the merge, which is only a very small spectrum of air combat, in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn't necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects...We gain energy better than the F-22 when we are slow, for example, and we recognise that. In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22 with advantages in some aspects. We feel pretty comfortable in that situation right now out of the experience we have had here, and we're in a position to survive against almost all jets in close combat'. "It sounds as though we have very different recollections as to the outcomes of the BFM engagements that were fought," one Raptor pilot says. USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says. Let's see. The german guy mentioned in the other article was there, his Typhoons were there, the F-22s were there and they simulated head-to-head aerial combat. There seems to be stories about the Typhoon winning the dogfight elements but none regarding the F-22 winning them. How odd. I think I'll leave it there for now. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment
Vault Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 "In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22 with advantages in some aspects" Is that an admission that the EF is superior in the dogfight?. I'm not surprised TBH. The fact that the EF is a delta gives it the opportunity to cash in energy for turn radius quicker that the F-22. By design the EF should turn quicker. Those fights must have been real tight with low energy for the F-22's TVC to come into effect. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment
GGTharos Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 No, it's saying the same thing you'll find any vs comparison. One thing they seemed to clearly mention was that once the two get slow (Where slow is defined as both being below a certain mach number) the Eurofighter will gain speed faster. You can actually experience the same thing in FC2! Below M0.4, a Su-27 will out-accelerate and out-climb an F-15 ... above 0.6, the F-15 will solidly eat the Su-27's lunch for the same thing. It's a flight regime difference ... and it really doesn't mean anything in terms of overall combat. For example, you don't see them mentioning the F-22's constant 60deg AoA which is quite an insane capability. The TVC is painted as some sort of disadvantage which it isn't; obviously anything that isn't used correctly can become a disadvantage, but that goes for everyone. Basically you cannot draw any conclusions from anything that was said. Both sides are claiming kills, and that's basically all there is to this; the rest is fluff and details which, while in some cases may be interesting, don't really shed much light on what happened and why. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment
Ells228 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 And the equipment is only as good as the person using it ;) Link to comment
Vault Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 "In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22 with advantages in some aspects" The Eagle vs Flanker is a completely different ball game. GG either I'm reading the above quote wrong or that F-22 pilot stated hat the EF is better in the dogfight. It's a straight forward statement. So far what I make of it is. 1, The EF can out turn the F-22 except at very low speed because of the Raptor's TVC. 2, The EF can accelerate quicker than the F-22. There pretty critical factors in the dogfight. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment
Ells228 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 When it comes down to it both aircraft have different factors which give each other advantages in ACM over the other. I doubt there's any concrete evidence that suggests one is better in combat than the other. It's all about using the systems, airframe, handling, etc to the best advantage pushing to the edge of the flight envelope and weapon / countermeasure systems. It would probably come down to pilot ability in the end, therefore one pilot is going to say one thing and the other something different both claiming to be better. Link to comment
GGTharos Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 "In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22 with advantages in some aspects" The Eagle vs Flanker is a completely different ball game. It isn't. We're talking about regime comparison, and I'm not saying that one's like the eagle and one's like the flanker. Maybe my implication wasn't clear, the point is that you see performance graphs for two planes crossing at some points, some times; this would appear to be such a situation. More over, the bigger point is that all they've told you about is the lower left corner of the Ps graph, and nothing about the rest. GG either I'm reading the above quote wrong or that F-22 pilot stated hat the EF is better in the dogfight. It's a straight forward statement. No, he said no such thing. You're definitely reading it wrong, and there are caveats. There are a few things you can guess the EF is better at which have nothing to do with airframe performance in a dogfight for example (but they're a big deal for a dogfight :) ). So far what I make of it is. 1, The EF can out turn the F-22 except at very low speed because of the Raptor's TVC. 2, The EF can accelerate quicker than the F-22. There pretty critical factors in the dogfight. He said neither 1, nor 2 the way you interpret it. 1) They're talking about sustained g's at slow speed. Falling into the TVC regime is the pilot's fault - ie. he's going into high AoA or even post-stall maneuvering regime and he's doing it in such a way as to allow the EF on his six (if you're behind the EF, it isn't a problem, despite 2) ). 2) The EF can accelerate better than the F-22 out of a slow speed situation. That stops after a point, and probably the F-22 takes over. We see such things with other aircraft comparisons as well. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment
Vault Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Ells well said. There's never concrete evidence and the human is 100% the crucial factor in any given combat scenario regardless of ground, sea or air. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment
GGTharos Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 People like to say it's the pilot Ells, but think about it this way: Forgetting our flight simulation environment where you don't know just who you'll get flying in that 'pit, RL pilots have some sort of minimum standard of training which us vPilots would get washed out of in week one, assuming we even got in. Given that, are you still really willing to say that in say, an EF v A-10C fight, it's the pilot? While it isn't impossible for the A-10C to win, the airframe and associated equipment is pretty darned important and relevant. When it comes down to it both aircraft have different factors which give each other advantages in ACM over the other. I doubt there's any concrete evidence that suggests one is better in combat than the other. It's all about using the systems, airframe, handling, etc to the best advantage pushing to the edge of the flight envelope and weapon / countermeasure systems. It would probably come down to pilot ability in the end, therefore one pilot is going to say one thing and the other something different both claiming to be better. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment
aaron886 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Certainly, but assuming at least a base level of minimum pilot quality, the aircraft DOES begin to play a factor. My beef is that the things that truly matter in combat are never considered. ;) (The internet is full of people who like to compare statistics, but if you talk to a pilot you'll hear a much different story.) The fact that the EF is a delta gives it the opportunity to cash in energy for turn radius quicker that the F-22. By design the EF should turn quicker Careful with these kinds of guesses. There's a lot more to it than "cash in energy for turn radius." In fact that's not accurate at all. :) Link to comment
falcon_120 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Even if the Typhoon is a slightly better dogfighter,it doesn't matter that much,I'd be in a raptor anygiven day,if you can decimate your enemy from BVR just stay there and disengage if you're getting close.They still have to train dogfight but actually they don't need it,at least if the Raptor is as stealhy as all us think it is. Link to comment
GGTharos Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Certainly, but assuming at least a base level of minimum pilot quality, the aircraft DOES begin to play a factor. My beef is that the things that truly matter in combat are never considered. ;) (The internet is full of people who like to compare statistics, but if you talk to a pilot you'll hear a much different story.) Probably because statistics are easy to compare (not to mention I'm sure it's infinitely entertaining for all kinds of people ;) ), but even that is often done wrong - eg you see people saying 'this is an M2.0 plane, that one's 2.5, so it's better'. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment
OutOnTheOP Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Ok, I agree with you on that,when I was talking about the Eagle,I thought we were talking about an F-15C. Obviusly a golden Eagle is a total different beast,you have new engines,Aesa radar,better RCS and much more things,in the end you have a new plane,but it seems is going to be that way too with the Typhoon,for example I think in 5 year period or so,the saudi's typhoons will be a different plane that a spanish one,there is talking that they want to put AESA,TVC and CFTs on their planes,something that as things are going in Europe is very difficult that spanish or italians planes get. Er... Golden Eagle IS an F-15C. In fact, these days, it's THE F-15C. They either have, or are in the process of (I think already complete) upgrading 170-some of them... and that'll be the entire active duty fleet. Also, I don't think there were any RCS modifications on the Golden Eagle. ECM, yes... but not RCS. Link to comment
komemiute Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Was that the one at Warton, or is that just the one they use for development? Love the Typhoon but the damn things kept setting off car alarms all day long though.:mad: Not in GB. :) Link to comment
Ells228 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I hear what you're saying GG but I was comparing a Raptor to Tiffy. Of course the Hog would no match for Tiffy but I think if you look at systems, airframe and everything else thrown in, both aircraft are pretty matched in combat. The good thing is that we're both on the same side so unlikely to have combat against each other. Link to comment
aaron886 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I think it's fairly well accepted that in air to air combat, they are not "matched" but at least they're comparable. Anyway, it's all apples and oranges. Link to comment
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