M-2000C vs. Su-27

Hi All,

Me and my friend have recently purchased the M-2000C modules and had a huge amount of fun learning how to operate it. To a Su-27 fan such as myself it was "disturbing" to discover that the Mirage was faster, climbed better and accelerated like a bullet (energy regaining). Potential dogfights against that machine were lost..

However, after trying out the M-2000C's air to air weapons I realised that the short ranges of Magic and Super missiles were it's big flaw (not to mention 2x 125 rounds of gun ammo). I am yet to test it but it seems reasonable to think that if both aircraft were 100km away from each other with no means to play "hide and seek" the Mirage would have been shot down long before getting close enough to employ it's weapons. On the other hand, all I see on youtube is videos titled "M-2000C - the Sukhoi Killer" or "1 Mirage vs. 3 Su-27s"...

What are your general thoughts on the subject of these two aircraft facing each other? What are the odds and your multiplayer experience?

Thanks!

Online practice tells that M-2000 will not reach the distance available even for IR missiles nor guns. If Flanker's pilot medium-skilled at least.

Concerning the videos... were the Su-27s AI?

Online practice tells that M-2000 will not reach the distance available even for IR missiles nor guns. If Flanker's pilot medium-skilled at least.

 

Concerning the videos... were the Su-27s AI?

Erm, not really. Yes, the Su27 can launch earlier but the missiles are pretty easy to dodge in general if shot at maximum distance. Once you get within IR range, it gets tricky, the Magics have a pretty short range but are deadly, the SU27 can fire off-axis but the M2000 can turn better (initially anyway). I shoot down Su27s on Blue Flag way more often than they shoot me, biggest threat on red side is M2000 at the moment.

CME can really help to move forward at the 530 range

Few things:

- Mirage 2000 FM isn't frozen yet.

- the module is still "new" compared to other modules. A lot of players seems to come from the MiG 21, aren't used to Fox 1 fighting or even totally new to AA fighting. So I don't think every one use it at the best of its potential.

- I don't see the problem with the 2 guns and 125 rounds. Combined it's 250 rounds at 3600 rpm (2x1800) compared to 150 rounds for Su 27 with one gun at 1800 rpm.

What lemoen and jojo said is true, with my squadron we are often facing Su-27 or F-15 online and we have no particular problems downing them, you just have to use the good tactics and team work(!) (I'm talking about 2vs1, 2vs2 and 2vs2+).

Missile wise the M-2000C S530D have a good range, a bit below the Su-27 R-27ER but they are REALLY fast.

BTW the current in game aircraft that is closest to the mirage is the Mig-29

What lemoen and jojo said is true, with my squadron we are often facing Su-27 or F-15 online and we have no particular problems downing them, you just have to use the good tactics and team work(!)

Woe to you if the F-15 pilots are also using good tactics and teamwork. ;)

Woe to you if the F-15 pilots are also using good tactics and teamwork. ;)

Never said it was easy, but it's possible :D

In a multiplayer environment, when flying the Su27, you should always play to the plane advantages: sneak, IRST and ETMissiles.

If you can't be detected, there no dogfight and there's no missile to evade...

Ultimately pilot skill it's the biggest factor, however I do feel the SU-27 has the advantage as the better air superiority aircraft, as others have mentioned its excellent armament compared to the M2000 and BVR advantages are a big part of that, but I also feel very capable in a merge with the M2000 (while flying the flanker) as the HMD and R-73 can be used to great effect. When I'm in the Mirage I usually try to take advantage of my agility to get the first shot, if I fail I generally expect the SU 27 or F-15 to quickly gain an advantage over me due to the higher armament levels and better energy management

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With the Mirage I'm finding that once you are able to evade the first onslaught of BVR missiles by driving them into the ground, I can get in close enough for a Magic kill.

Also finding the enemy visually is essential because I can avoid targeting them with radar and alerting them. Then I sneak in close for a guns kill.

However, I'm having lots of difficulty with Mirage guns. Getting better with time.

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It all depends. I fly the Mirage regularly on all the regular servers and if flown correctly it can be deadly, however against a good pilot in a properly armed SU27 or an F15C, who knows you are coming and knows how to operate his airplane, you don't have much of a chance.

The Super530D is currently the best SARH missile in the game, it is much less susceptible to chaff than an ER or an AIM7M, and it's range is comparable to an AIM7M (maybe a bit less). When flown on missions where the AIM120 or the 27ER or ET are not allowed, other drivers will respect you a lot more. Still, you only have TWO of them. So the Mirage is very limited in an offensive capability. I usually find that in the current online environment, to make the most use of the M2000C I have to be positioned correctly, and never the lead friendly fighter to cross into enemy airspace. When I fly it correctly (carefully, and stealthily) I am quite successful, when I "forget" about these limitations Im the first to get shot down :)

I find that the plane operate very well between 20 000 and 30 000 feets (longer missile legs) against F-15/Su-27, you just got to have your SA right and avoid being outnumbered :).

Edit : On which servers are you guys flying ? :)

In a multiplayer environment, when flying the Su27, you should always play to the plane advantages: sneak, IRST and ETMissiles.

If you can't be detected, there no dogfight and there's no missile to evade...

Su-27S was designed for high-altitude superior fighter against F-15 in BVR combat, and as well perform excellently in a dog fight and complete if needed a ground attacks as well.

Why it is in "sneak" air-quake style is because DCS doesn't allow realistic air-to-air combat at all and it shows up in multiplayer where we don't have none of the realistic capabilities like datalinks (similar to Link-16), GCI, buddy-missile guiding and high-speed launch benefits.

With the Mirage I'm finding that once you are able to evade the first onslaught of BVR missiles by driving them into the ground, I can get in close enough for a Magic kill.

You don't need to drive them to ground, you can rush at full speed at the enemy and just dodge all the BVR missiles without any problems.

The BVR missiles guidance shouldn't never put them in the ground, as datalinks would inform the missile where to fly and keep them away from the terrain.

Many missiles like R-27 are designed to intercept cruise missiles and other ground/sea skimming missiles and those requires as well that missile itself will not intercept the target by thinking it is going inside the terran.

Su-27S was designed for high-altitude superior fighter against F-15 in BVR combat, and as well perform excellently in a dog fight and complete if needed a ground attacks as well.

 

Why it is in "sneak" air-quake style is because DCS doesn't allow realistic air-to-air combat at all and it shows up in multiplayer where we don't have none of the realistic capabilities like datalinks (similar to Link-16), GCI, buddy-missile guiding and high-speed launch benefits.

Currently in DCS, the Flanker is the only AA fighter with something that looks like a datalink.

Even if it was fully simulated, from what I was able to understand of real Su 27 SK manual, it wouldn't come close to Link 16.

If both the Su 27 and the F-15 were fully simulated, the F-15 would still have an edge in BVR.

Hey Jojo, does real M2K have datalink ?

Thanks

Currently in DCS, the Flanker is the only AA fighter with something that looks like a datalink.

Even if it was fully simulated, from what I was able to understand of real Su 27 SK manual, it wouldn't come close to Link 16.

 

If both the Su 27 and the F-15 were fully simulated, the F-15 would still have an edge in BVR.

It ain't as capable, but you get group of flight in same datalink and then you get targets from GCI or AWACS and GCI should be able to control aircraft from the ground to map intercept point.

Sure you dont get ground troops to give you data etc. But whole aircraft aint even designed for that. So enough is to get targets at air and be able to see navigation and so on.

Like Mig-31 as flight leader and Su-27S as fihgters operating by assistance if mig for better radar coverage and missile guidance.

The Soviet doctrine is just that you dont have a single aircraft to do everything for everyone on all the time.

Hey Jojo, does real M2K have datalink ?

Thanks

AFAIK it's a primitive datalink, and it's GCI or French E-3F to Mirage 2000 only, not between fighters. It doesn't really worth the trouble in my opinion.

@ Fri13

Yes the novelty of Russian datalink is the capacity to "fly" the aircraft from GCI (it started with MiG 23 from what I know). And I read the MiG 31 could even handle flight combat formation.

But if you're telling me that MiG 31 can guide Flanker's missile I would request a source please ?

Overall, what is on Flanker is better than nothing and surely is handy, but it doesn't seems as advanced as Link 16 which can share all kinds of targets and threats, aircraft's weapons and fuel status and so on...

The way it operates (Su 27) reminds me of Ka 50 for target sharing, or the IDM datalink simulated in F4 BMS.

GCI is great, but it can be disrupted by ARM and jamming...

Ok Jojo, thanks ;)

Yes the novelty of Russian datalink is the capacity to "fly" the aircraft from GCI (it started with MiG 23 from what I know). And I read the MiG 31 could even handle flight combat formation.

There is a misconception of this floating around. What "fly" does, is that GCI sends flight direction to the plane and not that GCI actually flies the plane.

Lazur and newer systems inform pilot how to fly the plane for the ideal intercept and this data is automatically extracted from GCI radar plots, computed and then sent via datalink.

Pilot receives what speed, altitude, heading should he fly, and it also receives where to point his radar.... reading the manuals of these automatic intercept systems, it is amazing what level of automation was achieved already in the 60s.