Eagle Dynamics: Request a rethink on spotting mechanics.

I am a bit nervous making a request like this as a new user. However I feel that it is worth raising and asking Eagle Dynamics for a response.

I've recently come to DCS. I am using a high end rig. 4.8GHz CPU, RTL 2080 Ti and 27" 5K monitor (5120x2880 resolution). The game looks absolutely stunningly beautiful and the frame rates are buttery smooth. Lucky me. So what is my problem?

I can't spot targets. Even non manoeuvring AWACs that I know are sitting right in front of me at 8nm in a tutorial!

So, I've done some reading around online before posting here and I see that this is an already identified problem: people with 1440p monitors are complaining that their squadron buddies with 1080p monitors are consistently outspotting them. People with 4K monitors wish they could see things at the same as the 1440p crowd. And here I am sat at 5K, glorying at the beauty of it all but with the situational awareness of a Spalax (a type of blind mole).

So here are my questions:

1) Is Eagle Dynamics aware that there is a problem where people with different monitor resolutions are having significantly different ability to spot targets in game.

2) What are the technical issues around solving this inequality... is it an easy thing to fix, or are the technical problems preventing an easy fix?

3) Is anything being done currently, or is this a low or zero priority issue for developers.

A lot of highly skilled graphic graphic designers have done incredible work creating textures and artwork for DCS. It looks stunning in 5K... it would be a shame to make the game unplayable and uncompetitive for those lucky enough to run the game in at maximum detail.

Thanks for any constructive response.

(Here is a video by Phil Daly from almost a year ago that also constructively discusses the issue).

Very interesting and pertinent question.

Completely agree.

One of the touted features for DCS 2 was object scaling to alleviate this issue. It existed in the sim for a short time, but was removed due to issues.

I don't think much has been said since then, but ED is aware of the problem.

Yep.

Just to add a personnal precision : (using VR) I can spot long range aircrafts when the 3d model is not used ("box" units), even more at night with NVG, but when closing to them the 3d model kicks in and impossible to spot unless labels are used (night or day).

If, as you say, you searched topics and saw the many debates on this subject, you would have also seen people discussing your questions. Why don't you return to those pre-existing threads and read through them instead of wanting personalised versions of something discussed 9,000,000 times already...

If, as you say, you searched topics and saw the many debates on this subject, you would have also seen people discussing your questions. Why don't you return to those pre-existing threads and read through them instead of wanting personalised versions of something discussed 9,000,000 times already...

Friendly.

Anyways, answer is: I did search this topic. I found the Phil Daly video cited which was the best video based discussion on the problem. And I saw some very old threads that didn't seem to get any answers or reach any conclusion. There was some stuff that I did not understand about people on low res. sets ups complaining about something or other... but like I said I didn't understand that part of the discussion very well.

I hoped to understand from someone at Eagle Dynamics what the current situation is. But thank you for your contribution.

i'm definitely curious to see if spotting will be improved for us VR users after the upcoming VR optimizations Wags spoke about a few weeks ago.

you wagering youre more special than the hundreds of people that came before you then?

So much for constructive responses...

It is by no means a solution, but have you tried lowering the resolution?

Would that improve spotting?

I am genuinely interested if you would see the difference...

Saying that, I could try it myself. I always just assumed it's my fault when I can't spot bandits, not DCS' (3440x1440 user here).

It is by no means a solution, but have you tried lowering the resolution?

Would that improve spotting?

 

I am genuinely interested if you would see the difference...

 

Saying that, I could try it myself. I always just assumed it's my fault when I can't spot bandits, not DCS' (3440x1440 user here).

Indeed by no means a solution.....

Yeah, spotting in VR is generally pretty bad without some sort of labels...

One solution might be to use less obvious and harder to spot labels for VR and enable them at all times, more like there is a thing over here, not red or blue etc just something to help draw the eye.

This is not a new issue, there have been several threads just about this issue. For now you could try dropping your resolution down to see if that helps but to fix the issue it would require a rebuilding on the visibility system DCS uses. Other games have long done this better than DCS from aces high, IL2, BMS, even warthunder have better systems.

More reading:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a414893.pdf

One solution might be to use less obvious and harder to spot labels for VR and enable them at all times, more like there is a thing over here, not red or blue etc just something to help draw the eye.

New label options could go a long way. I just want them to not be visible through the aircraft (except the canopy frame because you can move your head around/parallax - not an issue for VR users, but as I don't use it, it's hard to look around the canopy frame at times).

Some planes have weird and inconsistent LOD models that are readily noticeable at long distance. Making the LOD transition smoother and enlarging them all at distance could work too. I think that's basically what the old model scaling option did.

and there was me thinking it was my poor old eyes, I doubt its gonna get fixed anytime soon as it been going on for over a year

I guess you can sadly add it to the list of things that don't work in DSC world :)

New label options could go a long way. I just want them to not be visible through the aircraft (except the canopy frame because you can move your head around/parallax - not an issue for VR users, but as I don't use it, it's hard to look around the canopy frame at times).

 

 

Some planes have weird and inconsistent LOD models that are readily noticeable at long distance. Making the LOD transition smoother and enlarging them all at distance could work too. I think that's basically what the old model scaling option did.

Yeah I totally agree that the labels shouldn't be visible through the floor of the plane. Maybe something like a "pixel block" like the "dots" we have but a similar color palate to the background so it doesn't stand out as much like RED/BLUE. If its in the sky, then a slightly darker shade of blue or on the ground "green" or whatever makes sense.

sorry but can't you have real data?

a real military pilot without the help of technology, how far can you see another plane while in flight?

at what distance can you see a plane with the naked eye?

sorry but can't you have real data?

a real military pilot without the help of technology, how far can you see another plane while in flight?

 

at what distance can you see a plane with the naked eye?

that`s highy depend upon the individuals. Heard a pilot can spot the tiny dot at 20nm, others say 10, 15..everybody is different.

It is by no means a solution, but have you tried lowering the resolution?

Would that improve spotting?

 

I am genuinely interested if you would see the difference...

 

Saying that, I could try it myself. I always just assumed it's my fault when I can't spot bandits, not DCS' (3440x1440 user here).

Oh, you would definitely see a difference, but considering screens usually look terrible in non-native resolutions, it would probably be worse than either and blurry to boot.

Take a 27'' 4k screen set to 1080p and a 27'' 1080p native side by side, logically, they should look the same but they won't, the 4k one will be really fuzzy/soft. I tried that years ago when I bought a 4k monitor (back when it was a new thing) and quickly realised my PC wasn't up to snuff.

and there was me thinking it was my poor old eyes, I doubt its gonna get fixed anytime soon as it been going on for over a year

I guess you can sadly add it to the list of things that don't work in DSC world :)

More like it's been going on since flight sims were a thing... although, back in the day when 640x480 was a thing and pixels were the size of your thumb it was somewhat less complicated

that`s highy depend upon the individuals. Heard a pilot can spot the tiny dot at 20nm, others say 10, 15..everybody is different.

Actually its not. There are some serious scientific methodologies from "sensor world" like the Johnson Criteria that very effectively quantify that, and when coupled with what's known biologically about the human eye you can get some pretty reasonable figures on it, assuming you aren't actually hiring blind fighter pilots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson%27s_criteria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity

And hey turns out that ED/belsimtek is actually aware of this at least for "Virtual" pilots

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3341529&postcount=1

But hey, its way easier to hem and haw about it I guess. If you want to discuss further...

More like it's been going on since flight sims were a thing... although, back in the day when 640x480 was a thing and pixels were the size of your thumb it was somewhat less complicated

But even then you had that big red box around that blob...

But the soundtracks were "amahzing"

Midi ftw, yo. Synthesizers are life.

-edit

I remember in Thunderhawk the best way to avoid fighters was to move very slowly while just a few feet off the ground. They'd just spray the area ineffectively. They probably couldn't see anything at 320x240 either...

God. How far we've come since I was a kid... anyway, all OT

Many people cry about this in Russian forum, devs say always same, labels and our system is realistic, more realistic than in other games...

I see nothing near me, even with skype and F10 i can't find my friend 50% time, probably we never get better visibility.

4K 27

What I see on a 4K screen is fair. The problem is that DCS uses some sort of sprite that appears excessively large at 1080p making distant fighters visible at 30 miles. In 4K for me they become visible about 10 miles which is realistic.