F-16 evaded SIX R-27ER missiles!

The only evidence of P or EP existence are the green fuses of some R-27s in Syria(unless laser fuses on R or T) and that they were offered to India recently. Chizh said there is no evidence of use by Russian Forces which I believe

@jojo your explanation about why R-27 must remain with this poor performance and wrong guidance is not based in a real knowledge but in your imagination and feeling happy that this simulator give you so easy air targets like that. Because is clear you personally don’t like much Russian fighters. If you don’t know how work Russian missiles or even don’t know how use them. Please don’t post ridiculous poor knowledge explanations in this thread that is been used to help a user that trying learn more about SU-27 and he find hard get success with such a trash of missiles for redfor side in this simulator.

@jojo your explanation about why R-27 must remain with this poor performance and wrong guidance is not based in a real knowledge but in your imagination and feeling happy that this simulator give you so easy air targets like that. Because is clear you personally don’t like much Russian fighters. If you don’t know how work Russian missiles or even don’t know how use them. Please don’t post ridiculous poor knowledge explanations in this thread that is been used to help a user that trying learn more about SU-27 and he find hard get success with such a trash of missiles for redfor side in this simulator.

The thing is you must have clear mind to assess what happen in the sim.

1- how does it work in sim ?

2- is the effect realistic ?

I went in missile .lua file. I’m at work right now, but when back home I’ll post the .lua values and you will see that R-27T/ET in game isn’t worse for flare resistance than AIM-9M or Magic 2.

I will also post AIM-7 Vs R-27 chaff résistance from the game.

I’m not telling you that this is normal real world behaviour, I’m telling you that this is the same on both side for weapons of the same era. So it isn’t biased to one side as you suggest.

[Edit]Found Tacview and tracks

If one make it wrong, you can miss all missiles.

And so far I don’t see real world knowledge from you, only public sources and I didn’t waited for you to know that R-27R1/ER1 have LOAL capacity.

This capacity is said to extend firing range.

A FCR (Fire Control Radar) has greater lock on range than SARH seeker because of bigger antenna. So LOAL allows to shoot at greater range.

It doesn’t mean that it’s used in every cases.

And you source confirms that R-27T/ET are LOBL, as in game.

Typical SARH lock on range for western seeker for fighter size targets were around 50km.

But if you shoot farther than that, this is fair to have low PK, because you give plenty of time to the target to escape. So there is few practical use for R-27R/ER LOAL feature.

But at the end of the day, if you are fighting Fox 3 with Fox 1 you are at disadvantage.

Only group tactics can allow you to succeed.

Let’s keep the patriotic pride out of this if we want to understand. In the M-2000C we saw a lot of guy complaining about Super 530D. A lot of them didn’t understand Fox 1 and Doppler Radar limitations.

A new guy comes and say “R-27ER are crap, I’ll rather go for F-15C”.

And instead of teaching him how to properly use Su-27 you’re posting biased comments.

I’m mostly curious of technology and fighters. I did spend some time trying to translate Su-27SK manual available on the web (parts about weapon system), the same with MiG-29 9.12a manual available. I bought pdf copy of MiG-29G manual.

At least make me the favour to use real backed up argument to sustain your claims.

At the end of the day you still keep posting wrong explanation about SARH missile guidance. Maybe you believe the guidance for R-27 must work the same as your Mirage missiles. Keep in mind we are not talking about Mirage in this thread. Also we are not doing comparison about other missiles as you do in your Post. And also with your examples of Mirage combat you are posting off-topics that not help at all.

At the end of the day you still keep posting wrong explanation about SARH missile guidance. Maybe you believe the guidance for R-27 must work the same as your Mirage missiles. Keep in mind we are not talking about Mirage in this thread. Also we are not doing comparison about other missiles as you do in your Post. And also with your examples of Mirage combat you are posting off-topics that not help at all.

You're questionning my explanation but you aren't posting any explanation at all about you're beloved R-27 and why it should be more immune to decoy. It's SARH with LOAL, we already talked about it. I question your affirmation that it should transition to SARH only in terminal phase like a Fox 3 with its own radar. Or you should provide a reliable source to sustain it, and then I will agree.

But SARH is SARH in the end. Or is Russian SARH magical and can't be decoyed ?

Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\Scripts\Database\Weapons\missiles_data.lua

 

Name = AIM_7, --AIM-7M

ccm_k0 = 1.0, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

 

Name = AIM_9, --AIM-9M

--seeker sensivity params

SeekerSensivityDistance = 20000, -- The range of target with IR value = 1. In meters. In forward hemisphere.

 

ccm_k0 = 0.5, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

 

Name = P_27T, --R-27T

--seeker sensivity params

SeekerSensivityDistance = 25000, -- The range of target with IR value = 1. In meters. In forward hemisphere.

ccm_k0 = 0.5, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

 

Name = P_27TE, --R-27ET

SeekerSensivityDistance = 25000, -- The range of target with IR value = 1. In meters.

ccm_k0 = 0.5, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

 

Name = P_73, --R-73

--seeker sensivity params

SeekerSensivityDistance = 20000, -- The range of target with IR value = 1. In meters.

ccm_k0 = 0.5, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

R-27R/ER, AIM-120B/C and R-77 don't have ccm_k0 parameters.

But AIM-7M is set to 1 = default value. We can assume that without the parameters the value is set to default.

This is a game, not real life technology.

So all missiles have the same guidance code with different tweaking parameters.

These Fox 2 missiles have the same flare CCM value.

R-27T/ET have slightly longer IR detection range, they also have much more powerful engine by design and according to real life missiles.

So I don't see how Flanker's Fox 2 missiles are tweaked down to give more chance to blue side ?

As far as CCM is concerned, it isn't worse or better than blue Fox 2 (apart from AIM-9X witch CCM at 0.2, but this is new generation imaging IR seeker).

You can question how DCS World code guidance logic, but keep in mind that these are the same logic for all missiles with tweaked parameters. So it isn't biased to make easy targets for NATO side. This is unfair accusation.

But SARH is SARH in the end. Or is Russian SARH magical and can't be decoyed ?

It is what exactly I am telling you. If you don't know Russian technology and you only want to fight for the supremacy of what you like use more in DCS (your Mirage or whatever) this is not the right thread. You are requesting proofs because you don't like the Russian missiles get improved. And I say again to you... why you keep posting arguments against Russian hardware if you don't fly with Russian Aircrafts over you beloved Mirage. You are helping who...? in this thread about a guy is learning Su-27 combat...?

whatever number you share here in this thread of .lua setting by developers is point less for people that don't care about mod the Simulator.

Go here https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=89 en enjoy talking about .lua mods. Stop post off-topic.

It is what exactly I am telling you. If you don't know Russian technology and you only want to fight for the supremacy of what you like use more in DCS (your Mirage or whatever) this is not the right thread. You are requesting proofs because you don't like the Russian missiles get improved. And I say again to you... why you keep posting arguments against Russian hardware if you don't fly with Russian Aircrafts over you beloved Mirage. You are helping who...? in this thread about a guy is learning Su-27 combat...?

 

whatever number you share here in this thread of .lua setting by developers is point less for people that don't care about mod the Simulator.

 

Go here https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=89 en enjoy talking about .lua mods. Stop post off-topic.

You are claiming that only Russian missiles are downgraded, this is a fantasy. I showed you the numbers to prove that in game it's on par with western missiles. This isn't a mod, this is core DCS values.

CCM logic in DCS is statistical, you can blame that, but this is the same for everyone. Learn to deal with it.

You claimed nothing can shake off the AIM-54, I gave you a video to show how to do it.

The link you give isn't written in good English, and I don't blame them, this isn't their mother language. But you are over-interpreting what is written.

As far as DCS is concerned, a Fox 1 is Fox 1, and you can cross over some Fox 1 tactics from one platform to another.

You have no evidence to sustain that Russian missiles are downgraded, so you are making false accusations. And what is your background to pretend to know so well Russian missiles guidance systems ? So far it's far from obvious.

Anyway, the finest details aren't available to ED. This is a simulation. All missiles in game share a common code with tweakings, ECM is far from reality and you have to make do with what happens in the sim.

So how the sim use the data is very pertinent.

I'm interested in having the things the closest as possible to the real things on both sides, even if you don't believe me.

I'm done with you :doh:

R-27 is already downgraded over Aim-7 by its outdated flighmodel with very little lift, which makes them very bad at maneuvering and bleed lots of speed, even though they should be perfect at maneuvering and have plenty of lift thanks to their huge control surfaces and the missile body itself.

Also the Fox 3 behave very different to Fox 1 to chaff. Fox 3 in DCS is able to reaquire a target when it gets out of the notch, while Fox 1 is trashed when it finds the chaff. Being ARH or SARH should not define whether it can reaquire a target or not. This makes the R-27 so easy to trash compared to Aim-120, because all you have to do is turn around and pop one chaff in the notch. Against Fox 3 you have to keep notching a bit until you get out of the seeker cone or until the missile is unable to catch you when it reaquires you.

R-27 go for chaffs even against almost head on fast moving targets at high altitute, which should be physically impossible (super strong doppler shift of the fast bandit should not make the ER R-27 go for a stationary chaff that should be filtered out as clutter).

So in the end R-27 are downgraded flight model wise, and in general Fox 1 have an unexplained disadvantage over Fox 3 by being unable to reaquire targets once they are chaffed.

R-27 is already downgraded over Aim-7 by its outdated flighmodel with very little lift, which makes them very bad at maneuvering and bleed lots of speed, even though they should be perfect at maneuvering and have plenty of lift thanks to their huge control surfaces and the missile body itself.

Please don't make grandiose statements like 'outdated flight model' ... yep, it's using the older 'missile AFM' compared to the new one, but we don't know if the difference is anything other than the way inputs are taken in. Likewise, the lift thing has been known for ages. The problem with increasing lift is that without some sort of energy management, the missile will take one turn and fall out of the sky. Possibly right off the rail.

Also the Fox 3 behave very different to Fox 1 to chaff. Fox 3 in DCS is able to reaquire a target when it gets out of the notch, while Fox 1 is trashed when it finds the chaff.

Yes, this is because Fox 3 is assumed to be more modern and has a pretty slick search pattern to re-acquire after rejecting chaff. The issue here is that the way chaff is modeled (and particularly how the seeker is modeled - and this goes for flares too) isn't really the best representation for the simulation we have. IMHO it works better for something like 'Command'.

Being ARH or SARH should not define whether it can reaquire a target or not. This makes the R-27 so easy to trash compared to Aim-120, because all you have to do is turn around and pop one chaff in the notch. Against Fox 3 you have to keep notching a bit until you get out of the seeker cone or until the missile is unable to catch you when it reaquires you.

And what would you have it do for SARH? The issue with SARH is that a) they are older and b) you've just trashed two radars by doing so. The SARH has little chance of dealing with things after this.

R-27 go for chaffs even against almost head on fast moving targets at high altitute, which should be physically impossible (super strong doppler shift of the fast bandit should not make the ER R-27 go for a stationary chaff that should be filtered out as clutter).

Yep, I agree with that - not exactly, but the result would be the same.

So in the end R-27 are downgraded flight model wise, and in general Fox 1 have an unexplained disadvantage over Fox 3 by being unable to reaquire targets once they are chaffed.

There's nothing 'downgraded' about the 27 (as in no one went in to make the numbers worse), and frankly there are no unexplained disadvantages over the modern fox 3 - in fact, I would question why you might assume it has any advantages whatsoever (except maybe raw rocket power). The air forces of the world are ditching SARH.

The fact is that in real combat, 'modern' SARH have had half the Pk of ARH. How is this represented in overall Pk stats in-game? I believe there are some servers that gather such numbers.

So, I'm all for fixing up behavior when it comes to counter-measure model, the lift and necessarily the related guidance issues; but not for the R-27. This would be a global change.

I mean think about it, the fact that 'average sensitivity' to chaff allows you to ditch a 27 (or any PD guided missile) with self-defensive chaff while head-on says more about the overall model than the 27.

So yes, the ECCM model is simple - you factor in aspect, look up/down, ECCM capability, target RCS vs total chaff RCS (or total number of chaffs or both, I don't know), and you roll a die.

And that's okay-ish except for a missile like the 27 that die roll should almost always be 'success' for chaff rejection head-on. It's not, so the algorithm is probably missing a thing or two that might be needed and the sensitivity needs to be more than a single number affecting the entire algorithm.

Ok lets talk more about help the User Falcon. It is why this thread was open. @GGtharos and @JoJo if you can please let us help the User Falcon, as you only mission here is not help at all to the User want to learn. please. Thank you...

OK here I made about 5 Tracks. I just did all them in a row. @Falcon please when you have time run those tracks. Please very very important. Take your Smart-Phone and record in video those tracks. Why...? because the tracks get corrupted with next DCS updates. I also discover some very annoying bugs that push even more the how hard is fight with those Russian fighters with bugs. I will post the bugs later in the right forum.

NOW: things you must look and notice very well. because those are the most important. Mig-29S, Su-27, J-11 and also why not Mig-29A but with BVR missiles.

1- Start your combat with ECM

2- Use first High radar mode for lock and track threats

3- When you reach 45km unlock the target and change to mode ILV. Lock the target back again. (this mode is your combat mode, keep in mind that!)

4- Activate the Override and do side/diving maneuvers as in tracks

5- Launch your first R-27ER at 35-30km, dive/side and again another R-27ER about below 30km range.

6- Now keep the dive for a while and after some seconds start a climb with a loop (I don't remember the name of the damn maneuver right now)

7- Keep both eyes in RWR and angle aspect arrow of the bandit in your HUD.

8- Turn off the ECM (I forgot couples of times do it in those tracks. (important do that)

9- He will be now busy with afterburner and notching, so as possible you can turn radar off depending of his aspect (only IRST/EOS)

10- when he turn onto you Radar ON, your nose onto him and missile, AND you turn down and to the oposite side he is pointing (important) that all quick in a row.

All that with chaff dispense in higher rate when: He turn onto you, your RWR get Aim-120 warning. (That's why you should have more chaff than Flare in the container)

And last but not least. Take picture of this post and Video of the tracks. keep it for you for further DCS versions comparison. It Change all the time...

Try 1 learning RU combat Mig-29S vs F-15.trk

Try 1 learning RU combat Su-27 vs F-15.trk

Try 1 learning RU combat J-11 vs F-15.trk

Notice how the tracks get corrupted when the F-15 get in high Gs. Happen the same with F-16. Only when the combat get in high extraterrestre maneuvers by blue fighters suddenly get corrupted. Me shooting cannon to no where, while in real combat was a kill with cannon...

second bunch of tracks.

Try 2 learning RU combat J-11 vs F-15.trk

Try 1 learning RU combat J-11 vs F-16.trk

Try 1 learning RU combat Mig-29A vs F-16.trk

I already maintain the missile mod, where the R-27 parameters are improved. I may have missed some things, but not deliberately so. I have no problem looking at them again.

Not sure what else you want me to do :)

Ok lets talk more about help the User Falcon. It is why this thread was open. @GGtharos and @JoJo if you can please let us help the User Falcon, as you only mission here is not help at all to the User want to learn. please. Thank you...

Ok lets talk more about help the User Falcon. It is why this thread was open. @GGtharos and @JoJo if you can please let us help the User Falcon, as you only mission here is not help at all to the User want to learn. please. Thank you...

 

OK here I made about 5 Tracks. I just did all them in a row. @Falcon please when you have time run those tracks. Please very very important. Take your Smart-Phone and record in video those tracks. Why...? because the tracks get corrupted with next DCS updates. I also discover some very annoying bugs that push even more the how hard is fight with those Russian fighters with bugs. I will post the bugs later in the right forum.

 

NOW: things you must look and notice very well. because those are the most important. Mig-29S, Su-27, J-11 and also why not Mig-29A but with BVR missiles.

 

1- Start your combat with ECM

2- Use first High radar mode for lock and track threats

3- When you reach 45km unlock the target and change to mode ILV. Lock the target back again. (this mode is your combat mode, keep in mind that!)

4- Activate the Override and do side/diving maneuvers as in tracks

5- Launch your first R-27ER at 35-30km, dive/side and again another R-27ER about below 30km range.

6- Now keep the dive for a while and after some seconds start a climb with a loop (I don't remember the name of the damn maneuver right now)

7- Keep both eyes in RWR and angle aspect arrow of the bandit in your HUD.

8- Turn off the ECM (I forgot couples of times do it in those tracks. (important do that)

9- He will be now busy with afterburner and notching, so as possible you can turn radar off depending of his aspect (only IRST/EOS)

10- when he turn onto you Radar ON, your nose onto him and missile, AND you turn down and to the oposite side he is pointing (important) that all quick in a row.

 

All that with chaff dispense in higher rate when: He turn onto you, your RWR get Aim-120 warning. (That's why you should have more chaff than Flare in the container)

 

And last but not least. Take picture of this post and Video of the tracks. keep it for you for further DCS versions comparison. It Change all the time...

No need to do all that. I can easly avoid to AIM120 by just cranking (and maybe using chaffs if missile has been launched from a close range). AI spend 3 or 4 missiles on me, and I dont get hi., I then use only 1 with my Su-27. The only difference is the AIM-54. that one needs to be notched (and chaffs), nothing else works! By doing EXACTLY so, it becomes easy not to get hit, even with speed way bellow 1000 km/h!! But prior that, its fine to know how radar works.

Proof:

Like that is for human players, AI and more... just try. Also in my mission the AI bandit was edited for a more realistic behavior. You tell that because AI that you use, do launch before get in good range. Just take my tracks and convert them to .miz and tell me if you gonna do the job with a single R-27ER. I mean you can, but not for a general combat standard.

I will create something harder next time for AI behavior.

I will not even fire before coming to R-27ER efficient range. Its a waste of a missile.

I`ll try your mission(s).

Ok, not lying, in my very 1st try, This what happened.

Btw, F15 didnt have selected any weapons, I then selected AIM 120, 7 and 9.

Btw, these are all simple, try my mission HERE. And let me know. There are random aircrafts towards you, but 1st you need to bomb those vehicle infront of you (there are bombs onboard too). From then on, just watch for the F-14, if you get lucky :) All else its a piece of cake.

I will not even fire before coming to R-27ER efficient range. Its a waste of a missile.

I`ll try your mission(s).

I guess you don’t use anything about Arcade options... As in your Video

The Mig-29S vs F-15 of my tracks was then change by me because I saw F-15 didn’t use missiles because basically I didn’t let him. Try better another track from my tracks.

I will look your tracks and tell you later. I also will change my example mission, it is still not close to advance human behavior. Give me a time to try something harder in the edition.

Ok here is something hard close to the human behavior. against two Aim -120. keep in mind I forgot decrease the fuel amount so I was a bit heavy for the combat. Anyway I manage to kill the enemy and evade two Aim-120. All was simulated as closest as a human tactics.

Please notice those important behave and those will be very important in your success:

1-start your combat some below the enemy.

2-Keep the radar orientation (small point in the HUD) the closest you can to the HUD borders. (60 degrees in azimuth and up elevation)

3-If you can, turn toward the same direction the enemy nose is pointing when do his notch maneuver. (you will avoid lose guidance because your radar keep in approaching respect to the enemy)

4-You better keep focused in the HUD helpful information and RWR. Leave visual contact only for a close combat.

see details in the link https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4020324&postcount=4

Now talking about how human react IRL in a MP server.

The Bluefor fighters use extensively the TWS. So that’s why you should play with this card using the weaknesses of this mode. In an scenery with AWACS you must know that your flight aspect is replicated in some MFD of certain bluefor aircrafts. We have the same advantage in our right side display, just that we have twice advantage with our stealth IRS sensor.

Situation: we managed to evade the two Aim-120 and the Bluefor fighter keep for a while in Notch direction. What he gonna do next is look for the arcade extra option of look for his kill message in MP chat (serious server remove this option). After this moment what you better do is turn your radar OFF and make a aggressive dive. In that moment you go and play with the Notch card tactic, but not a notch for him. You gonna do the Notch to his AWACS in a very low flight waiting he turn onto your last position, but at this moment you gonna go only EOS/IRST and in Notch for his AWACS and slightly Notch for him (he will use TWS on your search, they have limitations). At this point he gonna think you are damage or falling. After a while holding low and notched for him to the side of him, so after some seconds turn onto him looking for his side aspect (where he have the hottest side) using only EOS/IRST. The missile you gonna use then is R-27ET for a stealthy kill. Don’t wait until impact, never do look impact you don’t need it. You go aggressively in maneuver over him with dives and flares because the next will be use your vertical stealth scanner with R-73 ready for secure this kill in your favor. I will replicate this situation in Track file removing the super smart capabilities of our AI.

Whos deleting my posts???

This is what I wrote before:

Yes, I am doing mission already.

I see what you mean by AI acting more like human, with defining 2 triggers, and their actions.

Things you set differently then normal:

- wait 7 seconds with the missiles and use passive defence maneuvers

- when user is inside the moving (trigger) zone, AI uses free of choice missile and abort the mission if needed

What does that make to be more human wise?

ok Following the tactic of play with the AWACS in Notch to avoid your position in the enemy Datalink. I did the track with a close example, not the best track but you will have an overall idea. Please don't look how the mission have been edited, because the mission edition is not addressed as main goal in the thread. Just keep looking in the evade maneuvers and the most important to avoid your AWACS detection. Go notch to the AWACS and make moves only doing loops maneuvers. In the Track you see I did a loop and killed the enemy. You also can keep doing loops waiting for enemy approaching and you face him by his side or from below with EOS only or Vertical if you have visual.

see link: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4020999&postcount=6

... but you still didn`t answer to my question.

Will try your mission,