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Can KA-50 avoid detection?


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I disagree with this. at least in part. People just don't know how to make proper use of them. Certainly there are times where a AH is not a good idea... but you can use them more often then some people realize. It just takes more planning and thought to stay alive...and more patience to get out to a target because they are not fast.

 

 

Well... Feel free to disagree but keep in mind I didn't say that one shouldn't hover at all ever. You're probably disagreeing with the part I didn't say :). I just said the AH is bad. It's kinda nice to clean up a hover real quick so you can check the map/abris or whatever if you're certain you're safe... but aside from that I STRONGLY recommend that you get really good at getting yourself into a slowly moving hover. Whether that's strafing along the back side of a treeline or straight towards low cover (like a building) or something...

 

Don't stand still :). You will 100% guaranteed die more often if you stand still on a battlefield :). I promise :). Hell... I don't even fly in a straight line at speed when I'm near the AO.

 

Why do you suppose that the RU Gov decided there should be two people in the chopper?

 

Partly because it's better to keep moving while fighting :). They felt strongly enough about the subject that they decided it was worth putting TWO trained people in ONE weapons platform that they previously had only ONE person in.


Edited by M1Combat

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I agree with csdigitaldesign, auto hover is fine. The Ka-50 was designed so that you're either employing weapons in a stationary hover or you're flying around, but not doing both at the same time (unless you're doing a rocket run). If you feel like you have to move around in order to stay alive longer, you're too close to the target.

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Attack choppers move into the massive merge... peer to peer.

There is nothing like this in DCS at the moment.

 

As mentioned before, the CAP needs to be busy on both sides to allow the attack chopper to do its job.

 

There is nothing in DCS that has the massive clash of steel coming together on a broad massive frontline, it is all tooo controlled and blue sided heavy.

 

Once the online DCS battle field becomes massive in both scale and numbers then this is where the Attack chopper starts to do its work.

 

 

There are a whole bunch of regimented dudes out there that got the talk..... but a true peer to peer war would see an end to such control and calm.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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Well... I'll stick with my thoughts on the AH subject :). It's all good.

 

 

But... a moving target is harder to hit and there's very little advantage to an immobile position unless there's just no cover to move behind.

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Attack choppers move into the massive merge... peer to peer.

There is nothing like this in DCS at the moment.

 

As mentioned before, the CAP needs to be busy on both sides to allow the attack chopper to do its job.

 

There is nothing in DCS that has the massive clash of steel coming together on a broad massive frontline, it is all tooo controlled and blue sided heavy.

 

Once the online DCS battle field becomes massive in both scale and numbers then this is where the Attack chopper starts to do its work.

 

 

There are a whole bunch of regimented dudes out there that got the talk..... but a true peer to peer war would see an end to such control and calm.

 

 

What he said.

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Why do you suppose that the RU Gov decided there should be two people in the chopper?

 

Partly because it's better to keep moving while fighting :). They felt strongly enough about the subject that they decided it was worth putting TWO trained people in ONE weapons platform that they previously had only ONE person in.

 

KA-50 was capable and easy to use like any fighter or attack plane with single pilot. It actually was even easier because autopilot channels and programmability.

 

But no other countries was interested for ANY helicopter that had only a single pilot, because they have defined in the rules of purchase that there is requirement for two pilots in the aircraft. Hence the KA-50-2 was born, only to fill that requirement, regardless that KA-50 was far better performing than a two-seated Mi-24, AH-64 or Mi-28.

You can't go against a customer requirements when they have set the rules how to enter to the competition of business. So if you want to do business, you do the business by changing your product to play by the rules.

 

Same thing is with the aircraft engines. Two engines are not there for redundancy, they are there to offer lower weight for higher thrust ratio. A single engine is faster, but you get high weight and large size, making the aircraft design somewhat limited. But two smaller engines can give you more total power, but be in smaller space, but again add new design problems. And if you increase total weight with two engines to same as one engine, you get higher thrust-weight ratio even then, so you are still faster.

 

Regardless single engine designs the F-16 has been huge success, so has been a F-35. If you are going to have a missile shot at your tail bloom, it will extremely likely take out both of your engines unless they are separated extremely well, like a F-14 or Su-27, and yet then the missile likely strikes to both missiles down.

 

Getting shot at, is getting shot at. And what you want is that you don't get shot at or if you get shot at that it is shot at anywhere else than your engines, your wings or your cockpit. Meaning basically anywhere than the aircraft itself. You can lose a wingtip, you can lose a tail, you can lose a rear part of the engine housing, but if you lose a engine, you are in deep trouble, no matter do you have one or two.

 

Which one is more important, an aircraft or the pilot?

A great aircraft or a bad pilot?

A bad aircraft or a great pilot?

 

There is a reason as well why example AH-64 doesn't have armored side windows, same thing is with Mi-24. Only those front glass is armored. Same thing is with a AH-1 and even KA-52. A 7.62mm from sides or under can be deadly to both pilots when fired from any other direction than straight below or straight front. Be it shot from the sides, you can hit the pilot and gunner and kill them.

But look at the KA-50 or Mi-28. Both have a armor to withstand 12.7mm AP in couple shots, even a 23mm HEI to their side windows or front windshield. But none of that means that you are there to stay when you are getting shot at, you will leave the area immediately, likely return to base if your visibility is too low to outside. At that moment the second pilot doesn't add anything valuable, the armor does.

And when you are in armored cockpit, your visibility to out is limited. Nothing like flying a Bell 47 within bubble and best visibility you can get by having a windshield (best is to fly without anything).

 

The co-pilot does add its value when you are doing normal tasks like navigation if you would need to do that by looking your kneeboard and check the data and then adjust your flight for that, when the co-pilot can tell you heading, speed and altitude etc. But the pilot is never suppose to be relaying the co-pilot for a such tasks. He is the pilot, he is the higher ranking one and doing the decisions. He is responsible for the navigation, engagements etc. A Mi-24P requires Co-Pilot to perform other tasks like launch guided missiles as it doesn't have a system for pilot to do that like KA-50 has. Co-Pilot as well does the target designation for other weapon launch platforms like attack aircrafts etc by painting the target.

Mi-24V general 12.7mm gun made it great to allow co-pilot to engage moving targets and hit multiple objects in target area, allowing pilot to maneuver instead flying straight at the target as being easy target to shoot back. And so on increase the survivability but lowering the firepower as 12.7mm is not same as 30mm. And 30mm is nothing like a 80mm rocket.

 

The KA-50 project purpose was to simplify the combat and recon helicopter tasks so that single pilot can perform all easily while flying, while engaging targets. And it did succeed completely in that design. Pilot is armored for small caliber fire so their survivability is increased and so on get helicopter back. But yet no armor is there to protect everything. Why you still need to leave immediately you receive ground fire, be there two or one pilot.

 

The KA-52 offering a second seat is great when you need to start to communicate with your flight. Assign the targets to each of them, time the attacks and same time operate a radar. Everyone in the flight are there to find targets. The helicopters are in contact with the ground troops, that they are there anyways to assist. When the ground troops spots the targets, be it a MBT, IFV or a recon team, they radio the KA-50 helicopters, tell over radio the target positions etc if not having a data-link terminal or laser designator. But if you can anyways fit a second person in the helicopter and sell it to do same things that single seated would have done that no one wants to buy because there is one person only, then there is no trouble. They just lowered the armor levels and gained space for a radar. Fairly good compromise one could say.

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Modern FCRs have no problem with detecting, tracking and attacking hovering helis, and when I say modern I mean the apg-70, as in 'that old'.

This was demonstrated in actual combat.

 

Please stop being rude by top posting. And post only under the quote to make everyones else experience more pleasant. Thank you.

 

The modern radars can have a problems detecting and tracking helicopters that has been demonstrated in combat and in new radars designs improvements, but far less than a 3rd gen or 2nd gen that I am talking about.

 

The situation is not such that pilot flies at 9000 ft and sees all helicopters in the 50 nm radius and then just goes there to pop them up with missiles like no ones business like in DCS.

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Please stop being rude by top posting.

 

Don't tell me how to post. Thanks. Reading things into the position of where a post has been put is truly reaching. I'll go with the convenience thing though.

 

The modern radars can have a problems detecting and tracking helicopters that has been demonstrated in combat and in new radars designs improvements, but far less than a 3rd gen or 2nd gen that I am talking about

 

They don't have any more problems than they do with fixed wing aircraft, as demonstrated in real combat.

2/3gen aircraft radars were entirely incapable of dealing with helis IIRC, yes - as well as some very early '4gen' designs.

 

The situation is not such that pilot flies at 9000 ft and sees all helicopters in the 50 nm radius and then just goes there to pop them up with missiles like no ones business like in DCS.

 

In fact, that's exactly what happens as demonstrated in real combat. The difference is that there's no 'business' in DCS - there are no priorities that fighters are diverted to which is what generally allows helicopters to escape prosecution.

 

Likewise, helis have it rather easy with respect to GBAD in DCS, not to mention the very static nature of most missions.

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Current and some older radar systems have the capability of telling F-16s apart from the way the doppler of their turbine blades returns the radar signal. These systems have the capaibility of tracking a tennis ball up to 60nm. Been there, done the measurements.

 

From a look-up perspective, such a system should not have an issue tracking either a moving or stationary helicopter due to the ever present doppler of its rotor blades.

 

As GGTharos states, it's the absence of a controlling unit that makes live difficult in DCS for RW pilots in a MP enviroment IF the friendly CAP is not present or not functional. It's a free-for-all when there's nobody to fight with.

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And by that you mean MP air-quake servers are a FFA?

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So in short we’re agreed then?

Precis below;

If fighters we’re occupied they wouldn’t be wasting AMRAAMs on RW.

Modern radars can see rotor blades if they are looking for them...(see above)

RW pilots have little to protect them, loads to shoot them therefore have the. biggest “balls”.

????

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Lol, yeah, you have to have quite the balls to be an RW pilot on a modern battlefield. Seems every boy and his dog has a fighter jet nowdays.

 

 

From what I've read, the heli blades show up like a bright light in the dark on radars. I'd have to research more to be sure though, and exactly what type of radars the A-A Active Radar missiles are carrying.


Edited by 3WA
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So basically it seems that I either have to find a MP server that is dedicated to Helo ops

(Haven't had any luck finding one of those), or get lucky on a MP server that has CAP over TA when I log in,,,,

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So basically it seems that I either have to find a MP server that is dedicated to Helo ops

(Haven't had any luck finding one of those), or get lucky on a MP server that has CAP over TA when I log in,,,,

 

 

 

Just sign the petition to get R-27ER's on the Ka-50. :D

 

 

Or, you can just keep as low as you can, and behind trees and objects. Also, stay close to friendly SAM's. If fighters are present, your dead in the open, flat terrain.

 

 

Hopefully, we get those Igla's in BS3, so we have SOME defense.


Edited by 3WA
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So then doesn't this thread imply that if the body of the helo is below the line of sight (including taking trees and buildings into account) of the radar, then you should not be able to fire on it, and if only the rotors are unmasked peaking above the trees, it perhaps ought to appear in the sim to be a direction-only, no-altitude, and no-range jammer icon on the radar but that HOJ shouldn't be able to hit it? That seems like a pretty simply solution rather than trying to actually model the individual returns of every rotor blade as it's going around in realtime, which is understandable it hasn't been done. An unmasked rotor could light up an active radar in line-of-sight with the ease of an active jammer but couldn't be targeted. I’d be in favor of that. I’d also be in favor of an option to adjust how tall the trees are. Might allow people to set up more balanced servers.

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Actually, the trees are a decent height. You just need to fly very near them, a few feet off the ground, and they will cover you. Flying low, I never get attacked by A-A missiles. The fighters always use their guns.

 

 

So, it looks like they can detect you, they just can't get a missile lock. I'm sure they could get a lock with an anti-tank missile though, if you were moving slowly enough, which you probably are. Luckily, the AI in single player haven't figured that out yet. :p

 

 

Still, their guns can reach out to about a km or so, and 20mm will tear a heli to shreds. Which is why we need to carry Igla's, so we can launch a few at them when we see them diving at us, and hope for a hit.


Edited by 3WA
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So basically it seems that I either have to find a MP server that is dedicated to Helo ops

(Haven't had any luck finding one of those), or get lucky on a MP server that has CAP over TA when I log in,,,,

 

 

 

What we need is a massive DCS online pay to use battlefield where the whole lot is thrown into the mix all at once, do or die, better dead than red war. (better Red than Dead for our large Russian users).

A real time, real weather mass war where jet pilots are just to busy fighting for air supremacy to care about the choppers!

Where logistics and ground force moral is just as important as kills.... basically, a real simulated war segmented into smaller areas for each and all of us to play in.

 

 

Or a complex one sided but highly realistic online battle field that mimics recent western battlefields in the middle east.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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Actually, the trees are a decent height.

 

Well, they're not shrubs, especially the conifers in DCS, but Alaska, Washington, Oregon, northern California, and Russia have HUGE trees. Tree tallness might be a neat adjustment. And there's more small patchwork I find in real life due to areas of clear cuts vs untouched. Useful.

 

We could additionally combine that with some maps with more varied terrain for rural areas (more canyons, depressed terrain for creeks and rivers, valleys, and lots of small steep hills) and taller objects in the urban sections. I notice a lot of flight simulators have nuance in the terrain in the textures that spoof topology nuance... Enemy Engaged probably being the biggest culprit with their sand dune textures, but then it does have maps with lots of little canyons with rivers in them all over.

 

Another thing to think about is that real roads tend to often have ditches alongside them to prevent flooding, which means trees usually are cleared to a wider path for the road to accommodate them. Some of the roads in DCS seem to have trees right up alongside them and no space for the ditches such that it's hard to get a chopper through above the road NOE. So some roads could benefit from a wider gap of trees beside them that would help helo tactics.


Edited by Reticuli

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What would be super cool is if the trees weren't all the same height...

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Honestly I don't have much trouble on alot of online servers. Sometimes yes I get vulched by enemy air. But if you stay low, you pretty much don't get shot at by some SAMs... I very much enjoy removing SA-6 sites with the KA50 for sport. The double digit sams are a bigger problem but if you can sneak up on them they are doable. As for enemy fighters, the only time I get misled is if go "high" like more than 20-30m, otherwise if they spot me (not guaranteed) they usually try to gun me.

 

If you want to have some fun on MP servers, go grab a mistral armed gaz and do helo escort missions for other players.

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Oh man, welcome to the party! it's not possible in DCS because it's Stupid Radar using ACM as in the F-14, F-15, F-18 will pick you up even from behind buildings.... So, until ED start to freaking fix bugs and use better Radar Sensor like e.g. Ray tracing Radar. what ever you do won't work. Not mentioning that AI RIO in the f-14 have super x-ray vision so the game AI is even freakier....

 

 

 

So the game is broken as for now. let's wait for some ages and hopefully the developers one day will start fixing the broken Game-Engine!

 

 

The Answer: IN DCS NO!

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That's not "quite" true but yeah I mean it doesn't quite work the same way as in real life either :)...

 

You can kind of think of all AI forces as mini-AWACS :). And if they have AWACS... well then you have to be SUPER careful.

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