D4n Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Do we know if it's realistic, that if AV-8B pilot inputs too sudden pitch up at somewhere around Mach 0.7 with 4 AGM and 2 AIM9 equipped, a wing will break off? I doubt that McDonnell Douglas wouldn't make the airframe strong enough for maneuvers AND/OR not limit pilot input by flight computer to cause too much stress on the wings... DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex854Warrior Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 (edited) Could you give us a track ? I've not been able to reproduce, pulling as hard as I can flying at mach 0.7 with 2*AIM9s, 4*AGM-65Gs, a gunpod and full fuel. Also, in the pocket guide that you didn't read, there is a handy chart telling you that, if you pull more the 6G in a Harrier that weights 28000lbs and is flying with a symmetrical loadout, you are outside the acceleration limitations. At mach 0.7 depending on the maneuver you should be fine, I tested it and was hitting 5Gs, but any faster and yes your wings should snap. Page 35 of the pocket guide, knock yourself out, read it :). Edited September 14, 2018 by Rex854Warrior [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilab Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 At mach 0.7 depending on the maneuver you should be fine, I tested it and was hitting almost 5Gs, but any faster and yes your wings should snap. . and yes the airframe may get damaged , and see its service life time severely reduced in some case, the plane would not be allowed to fly again has there been any account of wings snapping off due to - controlled - Over-G ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex854Warrior Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 has there been any account of wings snapping off due to - controlled - Over-G ? Have been messing with it for about 20 minutes and I couldn't get the wings to snap even after overloading (0 to +6-7Gs) the wings several times in a row even with a GWT over 30000lbs. If you go over the negative G limitation though the wings snap almost immediatly. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger71 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 The AV-8B N/A was never designed to be a hard turn fighter, let alone while fully loaded. As explained the info on its limits can be found in the manual. Every aircraft ever made has specific limits, that will lead to complete catastrophic failure of its air-frame components and finally the AV8B is NOT a FBW (fly by wire) design so it cannot limit pilot control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 Not fly by wire? So there are real cables from cockpit to control surfaces? O___O DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drPhibes Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Not fly by wire? So there are real cables from cockpit to control surfaces? O___O No. Hydraulics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 Isn't that FBW, an electronic signal through a cable controls the hydraulic valves at the control surfaces? Or does FBW only reference that a computer receives pilot input and then the computer itself controls the surfaces? DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearbox Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Isn't that FBW, an electronic signal through a cable controls the hydraulic valves at the control surfaces? Or does FBW only reference that a computer receives pilot input and then the computer itself controls the surfaces? Correct. In a FBW craft when you pull the stick you aren't even telling the computer to move the elevators x degrees, you're telling it to give me x percent of the currently allowable pitch rate and then the computer moves the elevators to a deflection to produce that rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 So there's even already an new level, after FBW that even more modern combat aircraft use? (where the computer calculates, like Eurofighter I think) DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baco Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Yeap FBW means the imput of the pilot goes to a Flight control computer and it moves the surfaces to replicate what the pilot wants to do. Hydraulics only replicate imputs from the pilot and even provide feedback. the sistem is as old as comertial aviation ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 Ok well I thought there is FBW, and there is "advanced FBW" or so (or "secure FBW" if that already has a name?) where the computer checks which forces on the wings the current airspeed+weapons-load allows (and thus limits hard turns to only 6, 7 or 8 g ) :P DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 edited. DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Just because there's FBW on an aircraft it doesn't mean it's programmed to stop you from over controlling. And there's no FBW and advanced FBW, just FBW which means there's no direct connection from pilot input to the control surfaces. As for wings snapping, the 6g limit is the official safe limit. You typically get at least 30% more g capability. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 Still, it remains, RAZBAM didn't model that McDonnell Douglas most probably built in a g limiter into AV-8B... DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DmitriKozlowsky Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 I've had that happen a few times. In all those times, it was during AA combat and I was VIFFING at high G 6+. So I am in a turn with half rudder deflection and 60 deg. bank. To Tighten turn radius and increase turn rate I'd VIFF nozzles to 85-90 deg.at full or combat power. Perhaps I pulled a bit more G's then. Then , all of a sudden, a bang inside cockpit, and world starts spinning at unbeleivable rates. Quick switch to external F2 or F4 view shows a missing wing , engine on fire, and gout of flame coming out of hot nozzles. So its ejection time. In all three cases I was either clean or had 1 AIM-9M per wing, gunpod, and 2500-2700 TOT fuel. No pods, no tanks, no AG stores. I figured I'd over-G the airframe. I had similar breakups years ago when learning A-10C, and I'd pull 6+ after AG bomb release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktoberfest Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Still, it remains, RAZBAM didn't model that McDonnell Douglas most probably built in a g limiter into AV-8B... Do you know that or are you assuming? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 "VIFF" ? And do you know for sure that A-10C didn't at some point get upgrade to prevent over g? DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 Do you know that or are you assuming? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Assuming ofc. If I were real Harrier Pilot I'd brag about it in my signature I guess xD DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktoberfest Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Assuming ofc. If I were real Harrier Pilot I'd brag about it in my signature I guess xD Well, I’d probably trust the guys who have contact with real harrier pilots for their info then. (Unless you can find a source otherwise) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drPhibes Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) It is apparently available as an option, but I do not know if this applies to the N/A. 11.4.1.3 G Limited Aircraft At tactical airspeeds below 5,000 feet the aircraft becomes g limited. Although it is possible to induce an “AOA” or “IMN” departure at these low altitudes, the inherent stability of the aircraft due to the high dynamic pressure and the low IMN at tactical airspeeds, make it more tolerant to all but themost gross pilot control input errors. Therefore, mishandling the aircraft will likely lead to an overstress instead of a departure. The term "tactical airspeed" isn't defined, but the phrase "the low IMN [indicated mach number] at tactical airspeeds" suggests that it is a lot lower than the Mach 0,7 described by the OP, so the G-limiter, if it was present, wouldn't do anything in those conditions. Edited September 15, 2018 by drPhibes removed manual screenshot as per rule 1.16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 "induce a departure" ? Where did you get that part from? And yes (to authors of last post on previous page), the point of this thread is to either get a Razbam official to state where their information for snapping wing comes from or even a real (former) pilot or (former) McDonnell Douglas representative. DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex854Warrior Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 NATOPS [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 Ok, now I just need to knownthe gross weight fully refueled + 4x AGM-65 + 2x Aim 9. Still, when Harrier was equipped with AIM-9, McDonnell didn't expect it to possibly also be forced into dogfights? I wonder how their AV-8B simulator deals with over G (related to wings snapping) or if there already is an audio warning when pulling over the aircraft's stress limit. DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladinsky Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 It is apparently available as an option, but I do not know if this applies to the N/A. "The aircraft becomes G limited" only means that maneuvering is limited by max allowable G instead of angle of attack, not that there is a built in G limiter. The main source of over G protection comes from the Q-feel system which increases stick forces with airspeed and a bobweight to increase stick forces with G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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