The cockpit is the wrong size

The actual .EDM file model in DCS is the wrong size. For a long time people have complained about the A10C cockpit feeling 'to big' or just generally off. No one seemed to have a real answer to those complaints other than 'the real cockpit is quite large compared to f18 etc'. However if you actually measure the .EDM file (the model file) you can find measurements such as the width of the MFCD or width of the ADI bezel. These measurements can then be compared to the real A10C using mil-specs (military blueprint things). After doing this I found the whole A10C cockpit model is 1.04x bigger than the real thing. The ADI bezel should be 5 inches wide but was roughly 5.2 inches. The MFCD should have been roughly 171mm but was 178mm. This trend continues throughout the cockpit. Every measurement is wrong by 1.04x. If ED just changed the export scale of the model to 0.96 then I believe all of the issues with the cockpit model would go away.. 4% doesn't sound like much but it's enough to make a difference. Please fix this ED <3 so I can make my HogPit accurate and not have to compromise. Thanks! <3

4% doesn't sound like much but it's enough to make a difference

I seriously doubt that the vast majority of people would be able to tell the difference between a 171mm object and a 178mm one at 45cm from their face, without some other objects of a know size to compare them to.

I had a quick look on the internet - people judge size relative to other objects, and if everything is to scale, I think the 4% difference is probably below the perceptible difference threshold.

Is this a VR thing? I have never thought of the cockpit being too big, seems fine but what do i know. In what way do you have to compromise?

Is 4% a problem? Are using a robotic arm and reference the edm file to move it in the real world? Maybe I missing a new gadget?

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A-10 cockpit looks very roomy in VR, it's true. On a standard monitor it doesn't really appear that way.

In VR, if you are convinced that the scale is off,whether it is or not, you can adjust it with the force IPD setting, so maybe give that a try.

The actual .EDM file model in DCS is the wrong size. For a long time people have complained about the A10C cockpit feeling 'to big' or just generally off. No one seemed to have a real answer to those complaints other than 'the real cockpit is quite large compared to f18 etc'. However if you actually measure the .EDM file (the model file) you can find measurements such as the width of the MFCD or width of the ADI bezel. These measurements can then be compared to the real A10C using mil-specs (military blueprint things). After doing this I found the whole A10C cockpit model is 1.04x bigger than the real thing. The ADI bezel should be 5 inches wide but was roughly 5.2 inches. The MFCD should have been roughly 171mm but was 178mm. This trend continues throughout the cockpit. Every measurement is wrong by 1.04x. If ED just changed the export scale of the model to 0.96 then I believe all of the issues with the cockpit model would go away.. 4% doesn't sound like much but it's enough to make a difference. Please fix this ED <3 so I can make my HogPit accurate and not have to compromise. Thanks! <3

I use an Oculus cv1 in this simulator and the cockpit feel confortable. I have never been around an A10 in my life, even worst I'm not a real pilot. What is the point in this thread? Skeptic, if you design a cockpit with all the switches, mfd and other amenities and this home made cockpit exist a difference of 4% in the location of the APU switch from the VR APU switch, you deserve a congratulations more than a 4% related headache.

Could you post photos of your cockpit?

This is a VR issue. I am trying to create a mixed reality cockpit. You would use a VR headset and hand tracking - both pretty much feasible right now. However there would also be a physical cockpit in the real world so what you touched in game you would touch in real life. The hand tracking would be passive and switches, knobs etc would work. The issue of the actual model being 4% is major for VR users. The reason it hasn't mattered up until now is because 2D monitors don't give you that level of immersion. When they modeled the cockpit in the 2000's they only did it to reference models and not to mil-spec; however, today with VR everyone seems to notice. I want to create my pit to be exactly like the real A10 but if I want it to feel identical to the in game model I need it to be... Identical. Hence 4% to big and wrong. I am 100% sure of the size difference as you can measure the .EDM files using simple programs.

I seriously doubt that the vast majority of people would be able to tell the difference between a 171mm object and a 178mm one at 45cm from their face, without some other objects of a know size to compare them to.

 

I had a quick look on the internet - people judge size relative to other objects, and if everything is to scale, I think the 4% difference is probably below the perceptible difference threshold.

There are new complaints every month about how the A10 cockpit feels 'wrong' in VR compared to the F18. The reason is because it is the wrong size. You would think people dont notice however with the F18 to compare it to it becomes very obvious. Im pretty sure that all ED need to do is change the export scale as all of the animations and 'clickyness' is baked into the .EDM file *I think*.

I use an Oculus cv1 in this simulator and the cockpit feel confortable. I have never been around an A10 in my life, even worst I'm not a real pilot. What is the point in this thread? Skeptic, if you design a cockpit with all the switches, mfd and other amenities and this home made cockpit exist a difference of 4% in the location of the APU switch from the VR APU switch, you deserve a congratulations more than a 4% related headache.

 

Could you post photos of your cockpit?

The point of the thread is to get ED to change it so I can go ahead with making my Hogpit. If I start making it now 4% bigger there is a chance that when they rework the A10 cockpit, they change the model size, despite 9line telling me it would only be texture changes. I dont want to waste my time if I can get it changed now. + I want to do this the correct way, not 4% wrong.

Is this a VR thing? I have never thought of the cockpit being too big, seems fine but what do i know. In what way do you have to compromise?

I would have to make everything identical to their model (4% to big). I then wouldnt be sitting in a accurate HogPit but instead a 4% wrong one. This might not be enough to erk most people but for me it is. Especially if I cant get it changed. Another compromise might be making the actual pit to mil-spec and then scaling head tracking and hand tracking but I don't want to have to fiddle with that.

I use an Oculus cv1 in this simulator and the cockpit feel confortable. I have never been around an A10 in my life, even worst I'm not a real pilot. What is the point in this thread? Skeptic, if you design a cockpit with all the switches, mfd and other amenities and this home made cockpit exist a difference of 4% in the location of the APU switch from the VR APU switch, you deserve a congratulations more than a 4% related headache.

 

Could you post photos of your cockpit?

I haven't started making it yet, only making 3D models etc. When using their model to get measurements etc I noticed the size issue and have halted all progress until I find a solution.

Is 4% a problem? Are using a robotic arm and reference the edm file to move it in the real world? Maybe I missing a new gadget?

 

 

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The way I measured was by using the .EDM file (the model) and measuring it. Another way is to load up DCS and use VR controllers which are a fixed distance apart to gauge size. However I don't have a headset right now as i'm waiting to see if the real reviews for the Pimax8K are any good.

In VR, if you are convinced that the scale is off,whether it is or not, you can adjust it with the force IPD setting, so maybe give that a try.

Does the IPD affect the 3D space? It may change perspective of the space but not I dont think it changes the 3D in-engine space meaning my physical cockpit still wouldn't line up with the virtual.

Wow I never thought to ask a company to implement a massive change to a product just so only I can build something that only I will use. Kudos my man.

In VR, if you are convinced that the scale is off,whether it is or not, you can adjust it with the force IPD setting, so maybe give that a try.

Except it ain't a IPD setting that is in DCS. The scale is wrong even if you look with one eye, that is the problem here.

How many has scaled the VR cockpit with a measurement tape and then compared to the real cockpit size from milspecs?

Wow I never thought to ask a company to implement a massive change to a product just so only I can build something that only I will use. Kudos my man.

That's one way of looking at it. Or you could look at it from the POV that I am pointing out a easily addressable discrepancy with their product which has led to many confused threads about the size of the cockpit. I am not blaming ED for anything, as when they initially made the module this wasn't an issue; however, with the VR age coming it is an issue that needs addressing and it is also an issue that affects many people, not just me. I am asking them to simply change the export scale of the file. *Im pretty sure* that's all that needs doing, however I don't make DCS and there could be some 3rd person things that need smoothing out. Plus I want to make my thing the correct way.

Except it ain't a IPD setting that is in DCS. The scale is wrong even if you look with one eye, that is the problem here.

How many has scaled the VR cockpit with a measurement tape and then compared to the real cockpit size from milspecs?

Exactly my point, the actual size is wrong. Mil-specs don't lie *hopefully*, so if they say the width of the ADI bezel is 5 inches but the .EDM says ~5.2 then there is an issue.

New cockpit

Although when I asked 9line he said the new A10C cockpit would only be a texture change, this would be the perfect opportunity to fix the scale and sizing issue. Apparently we are getting an updated cockpit by the end of this year.

I too noticed a while back that the cockpit of the A-10c appeared to have grown a bit. Seemed to occur around when the Hornet came out in early release. I now adjust the in game IPD when I switch between the Hornet and the Hog.

Does the IPD affect the 3D space? It may change perspective of the space but not I dont think it changes the 3D in-engine space meaning my physical cockpit still wouldn't line up with the virtual.

The IPD is the distance between your pupils, it is different among people and it is what just to allow people to have a stereovision, meaning you can easily estimate distances, but it doesn't affect to size you perceive. Even if you lose one eye, you can adapt in time to one eye vision and you can estimate ranges as well as having two eyes, but if you don't have a experience of something being at some size, it can be difficult as you need to do same thing as babies need to do.

The perspective is a point in space and geometrically all is from that. If you have one camera, the perspective is the nodal point where the light rays collide inside the lens. With virtual cameras like in games the perspective is the camera virtual positing from where the view is rendered. In VR you have two virtual cameras and both renders the scene for own eyes. And the distance between these virtual cameras doesn't change how you perceive something in distance nor size if the 3D world size doesn't get changed. This is something that can be done in the games that objects just are scaled different size regardless of the camera field of view (focal length) or perspective (position).

In VR games that allows you to create something like any drawing application, you can experience this yourself by just keeping an eye closed and you can scale the objects while keeping their distance same, as that is just changing the geometry of one object. So example if you have a three objects that all but one is kept same size and one size is scaled larger, the perspective is still the same but one of the objects will look larger than the other two.

And even if you would look the same scene with two eyes, the scale of the three objects are similar but you can just more easily estimate the distance to those three objects. And even if you change the virtual cameras distance to each other, the objects scale doesn't change, only your way to estimate the distance.

In DCS there is no scaling or even camera distance adjustment. So even if you force "IPD" value, you see things same size with one eye, regardless of the setting (I have tested that) but the 2D menu does go wanky and get rendered at different distance to the cockpit/menu.

The humans capability to estimate the distance is not about stereovision, like in VR. You can't just slap two virtual cameras and capture two different perspectives and then output it and get the player have better estimation to range. Because humans estimate the distance not by two eyes, but with the human eye muscles that how much the eyes are crossing. So when you look something at close, your eyes are crossing more, when you look far like infinity, the eyes are looking fairly much forward.

And this is one of the problems why military has not taken VR for in pilot training because you can not have pilots to estimate ranges because eyes are looking straight forward all the time, and not crossing the eyes depending distance. And that is as something that is causing nausia and other problems because you don't have realistic stereovision.

We need a 3D model scale adjustment. So we can actually scale the cockpit personally. The scale thing is very common problem in VR, lots of VR games looks correct on displays, but in VR they are HUGE and totally wrong size.

The IPD is the distance between your pupils, it is different among people and it is what just to allow people to have a stereovision, meaning you can easily estimate distances, but it doesn't affect to size you perceive.

My understanding of the DCS IPD (poorly named IMO) is as explained by SkateZilla below:

Physical IPD on the HMD Does this, AKA Focal IPD, Adjusting the IPD of the Lenses to Match your Eyes for clarity and reducing eye strain.

Rendering IPD changes the IPD between the rendering viewports within the engine itself., thus adjusting scale.

Matching the Rendering IPD to the Focal/HMD's IPD will make every Appear 1:1,

Closing Rendering IPD will make objects seem larger, Opening Rendering IPD will make objects seem smaller..

Basically, you're scaling your head size, smaller Virtual IPD will shrink your head, making everything seem huge, larger VIPD will make your grow your head, making everything seem small.

If Lobo is correct, then yes, that would fix the issue without messing with any files. Interesting how that works, I knew about IPD pf course, but assumed it was the same thing in DCS. In hindsight, that redundancy would be unnecessary, so your explanation of a ''virtual'' IPD makes sense.

Its from this thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=198338&highlight=Physical+IPD+HMD+this%2C+AKA+Focal&page=4

Post #38

...because eyes are looking straight forward all the time, and not crossing the eyes depending distance. And that is as something that is causing nausia and other problems because you don't have realistic stereovision.

Except that's not at all true. In my headset, if something is close to my face, my eyes are crossed. That's how binocular vision works, and how we see things in 3D, whether IRL or in VR.