Air Force Pilots need to Re-Cage their AoA

Air Force Pilots wanting to get some Hornet Alpha will need to Re-Cage their Eye-Balls. Brains, and Hands when flying off the AoA Indexer. UASF and USN AoA Indexer Indications are NOT Standardized. The Indications are Reversed - so Air Force Pilots on an Exchange Tour will need to get 'their Minds Right' !

Related:

Watched about half a Dozen DCS World F-18C Carrier Landing Videos - liked this one the Best (Clear & Concise without getting swamped with too much Detail). May the Blessed Lady of the Three-Wire be with you.

DCS World - F/A-18 - Case I Carrier Recovery Tutorial

Colors may be different but the symbology still transmits the same information.

The colors are different is all.

Might sound stupid, but i wounder if the colors could simply be the fact (or just pure coincidence) that a landbased airfield plane, Slow chevron is red, cuz landing too slow can make the bird sink much easier or too high AoA can risk of a tail strike when flaring, but you can land faster cuz you don't have a proper angle to catch a cable and way longer runway, so it's yellow. While Naval aircraft, coming in too fast, can cause issues to grab cable and go right through cuz of the nose being to level not making the hook much lower than landing gears, so it's red, while slow being risky, but the hook has more chances to grab a cable so green for the chevron though USAF would mak sens to have donut green as it'S where you want to be, but since the ball has green light on it, maybe the orange is easier to attract your eyes attention and less confusing or the orange donuts sorta match the ball wjich is yellowish.. :P... dunno.

Might sound stupid, but i wounder if the colors could simply be the fact (or just pure coincidence) that a landbased airfield plane, Slow chevron is red, cuz landing too slow can make the bird sink much easier or too high AoA can risk of a tail strike when flaring, but you can land faster cuz you don't have a proper angle to catch a cable and way longer runway, so it's yellow. While Naval aircraft, coming in too fast, can cause issues to grab cable and go right through cuz of the nose being to level not making the hook much lower than landing gears, so it's red, while slow being risky, but the hook has more chances to grab a cable so green for the chevron though USAF would mak sens to have donut green as it'S where you want to be, but since the ball has green light on it, maybe the orange is easier to attract your eyes attention and less confusing or the orange donuts sorta match the ball wjich is yellowish.. :P... dunno.

Green = Go (faster)

Red = Stop (slow down)

Symbols are what I go by. But it is funny that Air Force uses Red ^ for go faster

I think the navy has a little better for Idea as red means less power while green means more power

More like Stop and Go. but again I fly mostly off the symbol.

( Just like TTaylor Stated)

Green = Go (faster)

Red = Stop (slow down)

you didn't paid attention to OP, one fast is green, the other is red. Why would a red chevron indicating you're slow, wanted you to be more slow? The way i see it, on Landbased aircraft you ratehr be fast than slow and on naval aircraft you rather be slow than fast. t's more a stop tand think about both behavior, on field you got long runway you don't care if you come in fast, you can airbrake, on carrier if you come in fast, trap gets in trouble, you rather trap slow with an higher angle of attack than slow and risk not getting the cable, that is how i see it.

I'd say slow around the boat is more dangerous. You're closer to stalling and with a higher angle of attack you have a greater chance of catching a wire in air before your mains touch down. Being shallow and fast has a greater chance of a bolter and go around which I would take over catching a wire and slamming down on the deck.

I like the USAF way. Green is good, red is bad. Amber is kinda bad but not as bad as red.

But USN way makes sense too. Green is safest, red is dangerousest. Yellow is walking the line.

There’s a good read here from a pilot that has flown both the f-18 and the f-16. He talks about the difference in the AOA bracket (the E symbol) in the 4th paragraph.

http://www.72ndvfw.org/forum/m/5688083/viewthread/20557312-f16-vs-f18-from-pilot-who-drives-both

you didn't paid attention to OP, one fast is green, the other is red. Why would a red chevron indicating you're slow, wanted you to be more slow? The way i see it, on Landbased aircraft you ratehr be fast than slow and on naval aircraft you rather be slow than fast. t's more a stop tand think about both behavior, on field you got long runway you don't care if you come in fast, you can airbrake, on carrier if you come in fast, trap gets in trouble, you rather trap slow with an higher angle of attack than slow and risk not getting the cable, that is how i see it.

Nope. He said you have to think of it differently, and this is how you do that.

And no, you wouldn’t rather be slow than fast, there’s no safety in being slow. If you bolter you bolter. Just be on speed and nothing else.

I like the USAF way. Green is good, red is bad. Amber is kinda bad but not as bad as red.

 

But USN way makes sense too. Green is safest, red is dangerousest. Yellow is walking the line.

Green is the least safe, that’s why it’s telling you to drop the nose and go faster. There is 0 safety in being slow. In Navy aircraft you fly on speed and nothing else (0 fast 0 slow)

There’s a good read here from a pilot that has flown both the f-18 and the f-16. He talks about the difference in the AOA bracket (the E symbol) in the 4th paragraph.

 

http://www.72ndvfw.org/forum/m/5688083/viewthread/20557312-f16-vs-f18-from-pilot-who-drives-both

nice...

Green is the least safe, that’s why it’s telling you to drop the nose and go faster. There is 0 safety in being slow. In Navy aircraft you fly on speed and nothing else (0 fast 0 slow)

I didn't notice that the USN one had green-slow, red-fast. Another reason why the USAF indexer is better. The USN AOA HUD bracket is way more sensitive because it moves up as the TVV modes down so for every unit of AOA change the alignment change is doubled. The F-16 one is just static relative to the pitch ladder.

I didn't notice that the USN one had green-slow, red-fast. Another reason why the USAF indexer is better. The USN AOA HUD bracket is way more sensitive because it moves up as the TVV modes down so for every unit of AOA change the alignment change is doubled. The F-16 one is just static relative to the pitch ladder.

The Navy version is configured in the same way you would think to use a stop light. Green- go. Red- stop (slow down) Arrows point to where you need to move the stick in order to make that happen. Basically, the Navy version tells you what to do to fix it that instant without contradictory information.

The HUD AOA bracket moves at the same rate your AOA indexer colors change. VV goes above the top line of the E bracket you're going to show full slow, VV goes below the E bracket you're showing full fast, There's a small window for Amber and green/red at the same time as well, with the middle of the E bracket showing exact on-speed aoa.

Again, green doesn't mean safe. Even flipping around to the AF version wouldn't work on a Navy jet, because either way you're going to bolter or worse. Just fly on speed an none of this is an issue. Neither version is better or worse than the other as long as YOU understand the symbol in the cockpit.

Also, the F-16 has the same bracket, and works the same way in relation to optimum approach AOA, but instead of an E it's just a staple [. The reason it looks different is the difference in philosophy in how to fly AOA on approach. They park the VV then make the AOA good, navy doesn't have the luxury of landing on 12000' runways and actually has to fly good precise approaches that touch down at the exact same point every time.

The Viper staple doesn't move the same way as in the Hornet. As AOA increases and FPM drops in the HUD the first part of the Viper bracket that the FPM aligns with is the top. In the Viper the bracket while visually condensed is static relative to the pitch ladder. As the AOA increases more so the FPM drops to the bottom of the bracket.

The Hornet as it increases AOA drops the FPM* per nature but the AOA bracket drops faster such that it catches up to the falling FPM. The first alignment of FPM is with the bottom of the bracket. As AOA increases even more the bracket overtakes the FPM's descent down the HUD and the highest AOA alignment is between the FPM and the top of the bracket. Because of this choice of relative motion the E-bracket moves very fast on the HUD glass, much faster than the other convention.

In the Viper if your FPM is above the bracket you are low AOA. In the Hornet if your FPM is above the bracket you are high AOA.

I find in terms of human factors engineering that looking at a FPM which is rising in relation to some other symbol is naturally interpreted to be a reduction of AOA. That's what I'm used to comparing the FPM to the pitch ladder or the gun cross. Sinking FPM, increasing AOA. In the Hornet it's alien, not wrong but counter intuitive, because if your FPM is sinking it will appear to be rising relative to the E bracket. My FPM is going down but relative to the only adjacent symbol it is going up.

*Viper's FPM, Hornet's VV referred to as FPM for simplicity

The Viper and Hornet's FLCS/FCS operate differently in the landing regime which may explain the differences in design. The Viper is pitch-based while the Hornet is AOA-based. AOA adjustments in the Viper mean throttle changes instead of stick/trim in the Hornet.

Also the color coding of the USN probably takes its cues from IFLOS where yellow represents center "ball" so the color associations are appropriate. Green is too much power, red is too little, and yellow is just right.

USAF doesn't operate with IFLOS and the color coding convention of green-good, yellow-caution, red-warning is appropriate. I'm still skeptical of the wisdom of ever having the pilot associate the color red with a directive to reduce power on a landing approach though. The F-16N would have a special indexer for naval operations if it was ever built.

I think you're putty way more thought into this - as the the reason why. I think Occam's razor applies here: Some contractor engineer did it one way, and a different contractor engineer did it another way. Probably as simple as that.

Also the color coding of the USN probably takes its cues from IFLOS where yellow represents center "ball" so the color associations are appropriate. Green is too much power, red is too little, and yellow is just right.

 

USAF doesn't operate with IFLOS and the color coding convention of green-good, yellow-caution, red-warning is appropriate. I'm still skeptical of the wisdom of ever having the pilot associate the color red with a directive to reduce power on a landing approach though. The F-16N would have a special indexer for naval operations if it was ever built.

As far as the F-16 stuff goes, not well versed in the systems of it, hud tapes look similar to how the E bracket woks in the Navy. Again, green is too slow / too high AOA, red is fast / too low aoa in the Navy. Makes perfect sense to all of us ball fliers, as it gives us the corrective action in complementary fashion, whereas the air force system gives contradictory information from an ergonomics standpoint when compared to daily life, in fact we think their system is messed up. We however require precise AOA control, and it's our primary method of controlling our speed in the pattern. I can understand why seeing red would be a stall warning like indication, but our needs are different. More than one way to skin a cat I suppose.

I think you're putty way more thought into this - as the the reason why. I think Occam's razor applies here: Some contractor engineer did it one way, and a different contractor engineer did it another way. Probably as simple as that.

There was a lot of ergonomics stuff built into Navy aircraft that aren't evident on the surface, such as AOA light indications. They didn't used to be this way, but someone along the line was like, green means go when driving around in a car, let's integrate that. Can also be thought of as the ball below the green datums, which would also require a power on correction, as well as seeing red (red ball) you would want to pull up (LSO rule: if you're low and slow, fix the low before the slow), and at home red would mean stop in a car.

Since I started this Thread - Just a few Final Thoughts:

- Seems more folks favor the Navy Color Codes for the AoA Indexer

- No Judgement here; but what I will tell you is that depending on which Aviation Service schooled you, the other's use of AoA Indexer Color Code appears illogical and Bass-Ackwards.

- Go Navy, but check Six for Raptors

Since I started this Thread - Just a few Final Thoughts:

 

- Seems more folks favor the Navy Color Codes for the AoA Indexer

 

- No Judgement here; but what I will tell you is that depending on which Aviation Service schooled you, the other's use of AoA Indexer Color Code appears illogical and Bass-Ackwards.

 

- Go Navy, but check Six for Raptors

LOL, I see... :doh:

I'd say slow around the boat is more dangerous. You're closer to stalling and with a higher angle of attack you have a greater chance of catching a wire in air before your mains touch down. Being shallow and fast has a greater chance of a bolter and go around which I would take over catching a wire and slamming down on the deck.

If you manage to make the Hornet stall, you're doing something really bad, even at way low speed it takes a lot to stall. Which is why i presume, you see High Alpha passes being so popular in any almost, Hornet demo teams from around the world. So with flaps fully down, you give it a lot more drag to sustain.

If you manage to make the Hornet stall, you're doing something really bad, even at way low speed it takes a lot to stall. Which is why i presume, you see High Alpha passes being so popular in any almost, Hornet demo teams from around the world. So with flaps fully down, you give it a lot more drag to sustain.

This is slightly OT but... before all the software upgrades flying the Hornet on the edge of its high alpha envelope was not that "carefree". You probably heard of falling leaf departures (in not that distant past). Heck, these days you see all these loaded rolls and pirouettes especially in the "Super" at the airshows.