Little note about the FM from the devs

Jester, your explanation with the rolling movement when the tail rotor is above the centre of gravity makes sense. So unless the Gazelle can automatically compensate for this via SAS or something whatever its takeoff weight is, we should see different degrees of roll to the left when we take off with different loadouts right? So a fully loaded Gazelle (four HOTs, Sandfilter, full fuel i.e. overloaded...) should have a greater left tilt than a 30% fuel, no weapons Gazelle i reckon?

Well, when talking about the Gazelle I believe the tail rotor is much close the being at the same height as the center of gravity than the Mi-8. I don't have the documentation on the aircraft to confirm that so that's just an educated guess from using the Mark-1 eyeball. But I wouldn't expect it to be much of a concern in the gazelle.

@Exil Your right it does look like there is a small built in deadzone, but I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on that. As to the roll... I believe that behavior is similar to the real thing. I remember once when I was a flight instructor I had a student panic and seize up on the controls while in a steep left bank doing a 180 degree autorotation. Even though the cyclic wasn't being moved the R-44 continued to roll until it exceeded 90 degrees of bank. This is an almost certainly fatal position to be in an a two bladed helicopter, I had to elbow him in the throat as hard as I could to shock him into letting go of the controls. A terrifying experience. Anyway it's been a long time since I actually thought about the control inputs I make and I fly it like an extension of my body. I don't think about how to reach for a beer or bank an aircraft I just think of the desired result and it happens. Anyway I'm supposed to fly an OH-58 tomorrow (the one that's basicly a 206 not a 407 :( )I'll pay attention and report back.

Regardless though my opinion stands. Compared to an Astar it feels right, you can take that or leave it.

First of all thanks for your reply!

Well, for me it just makes no sense somehow. But you're right, i don't think about how to fly when i'm flying...i just do it.

What's strange for me, if it's the case, that if an a/c keeps it's roll momentum then how would you keep a constant bank angle? You would be in an back and forth situation with the cyclic all the time during the whole turn.

I also tried holding a constant bank with the other DCS choppers and it worked just fine.

Don't get me wrong, i don't want to convince you for one or the other side. If the Gazelle feels good for you that's just fine!

Btw, haven't flown a OH-58 but around 30hrs in a 407. This tiny thing is real fun to fly. No trim system but agile and powerful for it's size...and really fast.

I don't have an airplane license and not nearly as much experience so I pay much more attention, but I believe when I'm flying some like a Cessna 172 I bank the aircraft and then neutralize the yoke in the bank axis and hold some back pressure to stop the nose from dropping. To come out of the bank you actually have to put a left input in and then take it out when you come level. I think it works pretty much the same way with helicopters with maybe some more slight adjustments for being less stable. But like I said I haven't really pay attention to this for awhile so I will next time. Hopefully I'm not completely wrong here and embarrassing myself to the other pilots on here HAHA!

About the flight model, I also noticed that while going fast, apply full rudder and wait for the speed to slowly drop. At some threshold, suddenly the rudder becomes so effective that you can feel it is scripted.

My video on the subject of not holding a bank angle.

Never got a response from Polychop last time. Maybe now I will?

I am by no means an expert, have no real life aviation experience or anything, but with the Gazelle, Ive always felt like its lightweight alright, but has the inertia of a Mi-8. Its snappy initially, like the first split second, but from then on, it feels like its moving a massive amount of weight, and that becomes my fight with it. Just fighting the inertia, in both pitch and roll. I dont feel it in the yaw.

You give it a given input, it reacts, and then it moooooooves a lot of weight, and you counter, and it mooooooves a lot of weight. Can see it clearly in NixNB's video I think. Almost like it has a lot of weight, very low. Not its CG, but its inertia. Hard to put into words.

But if that is how it is in real life, well thats just how it is. I just wasnt expecting that, from something lightweight, that should be snappy on the controls.

I am by no means an expert, have no real life aviation experience or anything, but with the Gazelle, Ive always felt like its lightweight alright, but has the inertia of a Mi-8. Its snappy initially, like the first split second, but from then on, it feels like its moving a massive amount of weight, and that becomes my fight with it. Just fighting the inertia, in both pitch and roll. I dont feel it in the yaw.

You give it a given input, it reacts, and then it moooooooves a lot of weight, and you counter, and it mooooooves a lot of weight. Can see it clearly in NixNB's video I think. Almost like it has a lot of weight, very low. Not its CG, but its inertia. Hard to put into words.

 

But if that is how it is in real life, well thats just how it is. I just wasnt expecting that, from something lightweight, that should be snappy on the controls.

I suggest you try turning off the 3 autopilot switches right of the Main AP switch. You will find it flies much more like the Huey. And don't think those switches are necessary, they are not. They are part of the SAS system that acts as an "aid" to pilot.

You let me know if you still think it flies like a MI-* :-)

Okay, tested the Gaz again tonight.

 

I think i found out what bothers me about the FM.

In the real world (asuming no wind, no gusts, standard day) when i initiate a turn the following basically happens:

Pushing my cyclic to the left/right for a certain amount results in a certain amount of bank angle. E.g. pushing cyclic to the left by 2cm results in a 15° bank angle if i hold the cyclic steady at this position (i know this is very simplified but basically what happens when you break the physics down).

 

Now i tried the same thing in the Gaz. The Gaz starts turning at a certain amount of cyclic input but doesn't stop rolling at a certain amount of bank angle. It just keeps on rolling. I activly have to counter it with applying cyclic to the opposite direction resulting in a back and forth (or left and right) with my cyclic. So it's not possible to maintain a steady 15° bank angle.

In order to make sure it's not me overcompensating my controls i put my saturation back to 10% in pitch and roll axis. I was pretty stunned by what happend.

 

I applied left cylclic and a long time nothing happend. Still level flight. Then i just applied a tiny bit more cyclic and held it there when the gazelle startet to turn. This beast almost flipped over!

 

I made a little video in order to demonstrate what i just encountered. Watch the red diamond in the red cross at the bottom left side closely.

 

 

For me, this really doesn't feel like a real one. It's like if there is an internal deadzone programmed in it. If you overcome the deadzone, you will turn no matter how little or big the rest of the input is. It's totally digital...0 or 1.

Thank you!

The weird cyclic behavior seems like the main problem to me, but when I bring up the issue it gets lost in arguments over details of the FM...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=181563

No IRL pilot has ever come on here to confirm that the real Gaz flies level at full speed with a centered cyclic.

In before "but different French rotor system, so it shouldn't fly like a helicopter"...

Thank you!

 

 

The weird cyclic behavior seems like the main problem to me, but when I bring up the issue it gets lost in arguments over details of the FM...

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=181563

 

 

No IRL pilot has ever come on here to confirm that the real Gaz flies level at full speed with a centered cyclic.

 

 

In before "but different French rotor system, so it shouldn't fly like a helicopter"...

You're right. The main problem (for me) seems to be the cyclic too.

In the video stated below, you see how a swashplate works in combination with the cyclic. An increase in cyclic movement will result in a tilt of the swashplate and therefore in an roll or pitch movement of the whole helicopter.

If you look at it closely, an input in the cyclic (X) is corresponding to a somehow linear movement of the swashplate (Y). So basically what i said in my last post:

A left cyclic input (X) by lets say 2cm will result in a left tilt of the swashplate of lets say -20° (Y)

A left cyclic input (X) by lets say 5cm will result in a left tilt of the swashplate of lets say -35° (Y)

What i want to make clear is, that instead of having this X and Y relation simulated properly, the Gazelle rather reacts like:

If cyclic input > 5cm = tilt the swashplate

If cyclic input < 5cm = don't tilt the swashplate

By the way, the Gazelles animation of the upper and lower swashplate is totally correct and working as intended. But it doesn't feel like the flight model is doing the same. Maybe the tilting of the swashplate is programmed too excessivly in the FM.

Here is the video (very informative in general, but the important part starts at 1:34min):

And a little note concerning this point "No IRL pilot has ever come on here to confirm that the real Gaz flies level at full speed with a centered cyclic.":

I would say in my opinion the stick shifts forward by something around 8 - 10cm between hover and cruise speed in the Bell 407.

I suggest you try turning off the 3 autopilot switches right of the Main AP switch. You will find it flies much more like the Huey. And don't think those switches are necessary, they are not. They are part of the SAS system that acts as an "aid" to pilot.

 

You let me know if you still think it flies like a MI-* :-)

Should have mentioned that. I have tried it with SAS off, still the same.

Its not like it flies like a Mi-8, far from it.

I suggest you try turning off the 3 autopilot switches right of the Main AP switch. You will find it flies much more like the Huey.

Are you serious?

It's nothing like it.

Another test.

 

If you disable the gyros, AFCS channels, and trims and you take off hands off the cyclic without touching it its possible to keep moving and flying like this BUT if you touch only a little the cyclic, a very little movement in pitch or roll its impossible to control the helicopter without moving the cyclic although that might be related to the accuracy of setting centre point of cyclic.

 

So it seems that its more a problem of initial stability of the Gazelle when you take off vertical. Like keeping a stable attitude that isnt taking in count the Gyro/AFCS/Trim turned off, until you move the cylic breaking this initial stable condition.

 

When you move slighty the cyclic with everything off is impossible to fly hands off.

Wait a minute. You can for a short time at least a minute or more, if you balance the Gazelle whilst working the cyclic to electrical centre (*indicated with the OSD) You can also set the Gazelle up from low hover and land it hands off.

I recently added dampers from RC model cars less the springs and now my cyclic stays where I leave it, no centre detent or springs with an extension and no curves, this works rather well too I might add. More here.

You can lift the Gazelle off the ground pretty much vertically if again you carefully centre the cyclic for electrical centre using the OSD and careful application of collective and toque pedals. Although it will gradually start to move forward with out any cyclic input.

As you say once you put input into the cyclic it seems normal, and that is with Gyro, Trim, AP all ch off and master AP off from running start on tarmac, I have tried with AP etc on and apart from the response to initial cyclic input the Gazelle lifts off the same.

This is not a comparison after all I am a seasoned Ka-50 pilot NOT with some 40 minutes stick time. :D

I can't lift off like that but with it's AP on you most certainly can fly "look ma no hands" in fact it's gotta be the easiest helicopter to fly and land neglecting weapon and nav systems, that's just free flying it. It is however the hardest to land on buildings as I am not used to the lack of near field view. ;)

The Huey and Mi-8 not so much but you can flick a switch and use the mouse for a bit,.. Right. :music_whistling:

This is not Gazelle bashing it is simply an observation based on what I have learned and been able to repeatably demonstrate both in 1.5.7x and 2.1.1x my log book would clearly show the Gazelle is my preferred helicopter although the Mi-8 is fun to fly.

* I really hadn't used the OSD for indication for a long time in deed I was happy for a while when in the Huey it was off by default. The default position for the cyclic for me when picking up is where the helicopter is balanced against the thrust vector and it's CG hence with no mechanical centre and no OSD it where ever it needs to be to lift straight up.

Also the Gazelle doesn't need much forward cyclic (almost if any) to move forward from hover with somewhat more cyclic input for left or right to move off sideways and even more aft to move of backwards. I have seen diagrams showing that it's normal attitude is nose down. I not sure what to make of that.

At this point i dont know if this is HOTAS related or FM related.

The thing is that maybe my HOTAS is centered and keeping the Gazelle stable but when i move the joystick the inicial stable position is broken and then hands off flying is imposible.

Okay I think the difference is where I leave the cyclic is where I set it not a synthetic centre point imposed by the control aka spring or detent. I just tried the Mi-8 and interestingly between 150 and 200 Kph it flies fairly neutral to the OSD centre region with a little right bias. And yes you can set it and fly for minutes hands free. :thumbup:

The interesting thing for me here is it seems okay to me if you lift off from a slope, in other words you need to apply some cyclic to adjust the lift thrust vector to allow for the angle the Gazelle is at for a clean lift, simply electrically centring the cyclic input results in seemingly correct reaction.

Say if you have nose up attitude and electrically centre the cyclic you launch backwards and if you don't react and catch it you likely embed the tail in the ground. :cry:

Aside from the centric nature of the cyclic when I pick the Gazelle up the inputs seem pretty much the same as for the other helicopters. Notwithstanding magnitude of input and reaction time to the correction and inertia etc. but if the aircraft moves say drift in hover the correction seems to be the same sort of input.

 

Old thread I thought as new.

Sorry.

Revived!

I have not flown the Gazelle since the latest up-date.

I MUST send a comment to the Development team,

WELL DONE!

I feel a marked improvement in all aspects of flight.

The icing on the cake was flying in VR with my homemade Cyclic and Collective!

Add to that Flight panels software, Saitek panels and a small fan blowing at my face and I think I have arrived in Helicopter Heaven!

Thank you So much for sticking with it and delivering!

In Spades!

Looking forward to what is to come!

Now I need to go and try to lose my lunch with some reckless behavior in a Helicopter..... :D

I like also the FM improvements. Now is so fun and enjoyable to fly the Gazelle.

For sure still room to improve some aspects but overall the general feelings are very positive.

I like also the FM improvements. Now is so fun and enjoyable to fly the Gazelle.

 

For sure still room to improve some aspects but overall the general feelings are very positive.

Echoing my thoughts exactly.

Yeah I have been neglecting the other helis this past month or so, I clearly need more practice with the Gazelle. :D:pilotfly:

Just upgrade to 2.5 latest update, using Hotas Warthog & MFG Crosswind pedals. Take off had my usual turning motions but I felt I had more control once it settled down. I had a wee mission to trash 3 x Tankers heading to Batumi on the road from the south. Caught up with then on a narrow road in the woods on a hillside. For the first time I hit one of the targets with gunfire on first pass and did NOT have the wild PIO’s I previously suffered. I was able to slowly pass over the now hidden vehicles and find a field of fire. Being a rubbish shot took a few goes and almost hit trees, but down to one left. Then I found a possible way to finish, flew out to to the other side of the power cable pylons and hover taxied under themuntil I could see the traffic through the trees. Closed in and nailed the last one just as I had to get the collective up under my armpit to clear the trees.(Been a passenger in Gazelle a few times low over trees, very immersive). Even managed to land cleanly and hover taxi off the runway. I started engines running did not turn anything off. Been in the Wessex when that had Stab Aug failure, pilots earned his pay on that day. Thank you DEVS, I, for one had a blast.

Just upgrade to 2.5 latest update, using Hotas Warthog & MFG Crosswind pedals. Take off had my usual turning motions but I felt I had more control once it settled down. I had a wee mission to trash 3 x Tankers heading to Batumi on the road from the south. Caught up with then on a narrow road in the woods on a hillside. For the first time I hit one of the targets with gunfire on first pass and did NOT have the wild PIO’s I previously suffered. I was able to slowly pass over the now hidden vehicles and find a field of fire. Being a rubbish shot took a few goes and almost hit trees, but down to one left. Then I found a possible way to finish, flew out to to the other side of the power cable pylons and hover taxied under themuntil I could see the traffic through the trees. Closed in and nailed the last one just as I had to get the collective up under my armpit to clear the trees.(Been a passenger in Gazelle a few times low over trees, very immersive). Even managed to land cleanly and hover taxi off the runway. I started engines running did not turn anything off. Been in the Wessex when that had Stab Aug failure, pilots earned his pay on that day. Thank you DEVS, I, for one had a blast.

Plus 1 here also.

I'm liking the way the skids interact with the world now makes landing easier. :thumbup:

Sure is FUN :D

Thank you for the nice feedback. Your Polychop Team

The flight model of the gazelle was the exact reason why I refunded it immediately after buying it. Now I don't know what your team is thinking polychop but isn't ground effect something that every helicopter has? I couldn't get it into a ground effect hover at all back then. (about a month ago 2.5 beta) Also it felt like the fuselage had little to no interaction with drag. I really want to spend money on it again but I really cannot with that flight model. It does not feel natural at all without ground effect and physics defying flight. This is just my own experience with the gazelle flying it around for an hour or so.