Spotting & Long distance rendering.

Indeed. There is no magic solution that avoids all potential issues. The LoDs are one of the chief problems, as was illustrated with screenshots here and in the many other threads on the same topic, with some units snapping in/out of render more than others.

 

This has plagued every flight sim ever. Either you can't see or you're using a gamey mechanic. They can't adjust on the fly for people's various monitor sizes, resolutions, seating arrangements, etc. People playing on tiny laptops are screwed, that is one of a long list of why laptops are suboptimal. Etc etc everything that has been said 9000 times already.

 

Zooming is the easiest, least hardware demanding, and most 'realistic' (you have to know where to zoom, it doesn't just make targets obnoxiously visible so you can't miss them). For folks screaming about immersion, one way or another, we gotta compromise on this topic. There is no way to account for all variables people introduce.

 

Nobody here is some unheard genius citing a study or observation that hasn't made 99 times already. We're just talking in circles. ED is working on methods of dealing with it, be patient and see what they come up with.

Fair enough, as far as regarding spotting of units.

Can I assume that the con-trail issue is as old and debated?

(Has the suggestion to give it a long-range sprite-LoD been lifted? If not I claim I have a new idea for solution of this ;) )

//Jarl.

Indeed. There is no magic solution that avoids all potential issues. The LoDs are one of the chief problems, as was illustrated with screenshots here and in the many other threads on the same topic, with some units snapping in/out of render more than others.

 

This has plagued every flight sim ever. Either you can't see or you're using a gamey mechanic. They can't adjust on the fly for people's various monitor sizes, resolutions, seating arrangements, etc. People playing on tiny laptops are screwed, that is one of a long list of why laptops are suboptimal. Etc etc everything that has been said 9000 times already.

 

Zooming is the easiest, least hardware demanding, and most 'realistic' (you have to know where to zoom, it doesn't just make targets obnoxiously visible so you can't miss them). For folks screaming about immersion, one way or another, we gotta compromise on this topic. There is no way to account for all variables people introduce.

 

Nobody here is some unheard genius citing a study or observation that hasn't made 99 times already. We're just talking in circles. ED is working on methods of dealing with it, be patient and see what they come up with.

this isn't even true. there are two other sims i can name off the top of my head that have solved the problem.

the reason everybody complains is that it's not actually a hard problem. you could just copy what EVERYONE ELSE ALREADY DOES and you will be 90% of the way there at least.

They haven't 'solved' anything. They're using compromises that have their own drawbacks. Thus my point : no magic solution. Unless you don't consider magically enlarging things to be a drawback.

@Jarlerus

I never noticed the contrails :p I agree those would be visible from a long distance =) But like with the MiG-21 (I think it was?) They had a missing or glitched LoD at one point that made it derender at one point well WVR. Imo, the #1 issue is how DCS is currently a mishmash of new and old. The newer models suffee from this less than the really old ones that had fewer/simpler LoDs and shorter view ranges.

Realistically, a lot of this is going to persist until they finish updating the engine, and especially the 3d models held over from older games

Pop in the model viewer or encyclopedia and you can see quite a bit of bizarre behavior as you zoom in/out

Has anyone else noticed a difference with this since the last OB patch? It seems to me like they've added some slightly larger imposters (if that's the right word) that appear at longer distance - I was able to see helicopters on the horizon at 7-10nm or so (something I definitely wasn't able to do before!), and it's really easy to see jets flying around from 3-5nm. I've made no other changes since the last patch was installed. I play in VR (Samsung Odyssey).

Has anyone else noticed a difference with this since the last OB patch? It seems to me like they've added some slightly larger imposters (if that's the right word) that appear at longer distance - I was able to see helicopters on the horizon at 7-10nm or so (something I definitely wasn't able to do before!), and it's really easy to see jets flying around from 3-5nm. I've made no other changes since the last patch was installed. I play in VR (Samsung Odyssey).

I find that surprising. With my odyssey I can spot blurs flying around over 30NM. It was much harder to spot them when they were little black dots on my 3440x1440 monitor, but my ability to spot aircraft at a distance improved greatly when i switched to VR.

I mean.. can't ID til they get closer and are no longer a blurry object in the sky, but spotting air targets got easier.

Ground targets are another story altogether, but with things in the air for me it was mostly just a matter of time to acquire the skill. Couple years ago I might have well been a blind "Pilot". But I've had a lot of a2a encounters in sims since then. There's also something to be said for seeing afterburner flames at a distance.. especially at night.

On the topic of contrails - I agree these shouldn't be something that appear/disappear based on zoom level or distance.

I find that surprising. With my odyssey I can spot blurs flying around over 30NM. It was much harder to spot them when they were little black dots on my 3440x1440 monitor, but my ability to spot things at a distance improved greatly when i switched to VR.

 

I mean.. can't ID til they get closer and are no longer a blurry object in the sky, but spotting air targets got easier.

 

Ground targets are another story altogether, but with things in the air for me it was mostly just a matter of time to acquire the skill. Couple years ago I might have well been a blind "Pilot". But I've had a lot of a2a encounters in sims since then.

I'm not complaining (and I think it'll largely depend on other graphics settings - MSAA/PD for how easy it has been to spot), all I'm saying is that I see a pretty big difference between visibility yesterday before the OB patch and today after it. And I haven't changed any settings since yesterday, so that can't be an influence here.

The newer models suffee from this less than the really old ones that had fewer/simpler LoDs and shorter view ranges.

Counterpoint: The Blitz trucks are from the newer WW2 asset pack. The comparably more easily spotted targets, with a "low" LoD model instead of a dot, are super old.

And yes, I've also seen multiple occasions where VR users spot airborne targets a lot sooner than I do, as you explain with the "see blurry dots in VR is easier than spitting pixels on HD-screens". Although, I can spot ground targets a lot easier than VR users..

This is where balancing comes in, even though this is a simulator.

There's more ways of making spotting realistic than scaling of the actual target/unit.

 

Using contrast and color to simulate/replicate a realistic behaviour is one way to go, without unrealistic scaling of models. (this would be dependent on lighting conditions though)

 

In the example pictures I've added to the first post it can be seen that the lowest level of LoD is somewhat light gray in color, which makes it hard to see against the background. There's room for improvement here. One would have to make a study of how it is perceived IRL in similar circumstances to develop a better model for spotting.

I agree wholeheartedly about the color palette being used adding to the problem. If the targets were more distinct from the background in color palette it would help a lot.

As far as making it more "realistic" people need to accept the fact that the M1 eyeball is not well represented even by the most high def monitor. The ability to spot airborne objects, reflections, and movement is dramatically easier in real life than using a monitor. As someone who has played thousands of hours of flight sims dating back to the late 80's I can say that the single issue that has kept me from playing DCS (and most of my squad mates from AW, Warbirds,IL2) is the ability to spot enemy aircraft in flight. Lately I play more single player than multiplayer but I would LOVE the ability to set the zoom size myself to a level that makes it enjoyable for me. If they are worried about online play fairness then make it a HOST setting so everyone is on the same page. I so want to play this sim but its just not enjoyable when spotting is so difficult even at relatively short ranges with slower prop aircraft..

This is where balancing comes in, even though this is a simulator.

No, it isn't, because it's impossible to 'balance' for people's hardware, as I have stated before. 'Balancing' for resolution is no different than balancing for any other aspect of beneficial hardware. The guy with TrackIR and professional grade gear running a 1080ti has advantages across the board over the guy using a 8-way, cheap joystick, and a 1050. Welcome to life : Some people have it better than you.

No, it isn't, because it's impossible to 'balance' for people's hardware, as I have stated before. 'Balancing' for resolution is no different than balancing for any other aspect of beneficial hardware. The guy with TrackIR and professional grade gear running a 1080ti has advantages across the board over the guy using a 8-way, cheap joystick, and a 1050. Welcome to life : Some people have it better than you.

Funnily enough, it's the guy with the better monitor and hardware that has it more difficult, in this case.

Although I agree to a point, I do believe there should be an effort made to make it as similar across the board as possible. There will always be some outliers, but an effort should at least be made.

I honestly don't know who has it better or worse, I've seen people on both sides claim superiority. I only have one 1440 and my old 1080 to compare to. I considered the easier to read text a good tradeoff for any spotting issues :p I usually zoom in slightly when searching for targets though, so it's not an issue I typically have.

The units derender at a set point, often while still 'visible' as has already been discussed, so I zoom just inside that 'point'. I started typing out a 'theoretical solution', but then started thinking of all its issues... I'm honestly not trying to be obstinate (it comes naturally for one) I just don't see a REAL way to get around the fact we're dealing with pixels, and also have to have a limited view range for FPS' sake.

One of the more popular solutions is scaling models, but only partially resolves SOME things, and imo creates other undesirable issues. I'm not opposed to solutions, per say, as I've noticed 'issues'. I just don't see a GOOD solution.

Imo, the #1 issue is inconsistency. If objects render/derender, they ideally should do so consistently, not these at one point and these at another (as in your screenshots). The inconsistency is kind of what I was referring to previously. I dunno. Argue away boys, might as well. Helps pass the time if nothing else :p

Need to clearly distinguish from MODEL SCALABILITY, DRAW DISTANCE, LODs and RESOLUTION ....

In cases where resolution is involved the argument should mostly invalid, monitors and resolutions would need to simply be bigger, reality is a lot more fine than the resolutions we use.

Model Scalability which makes units look bigger is the thing which was removed, so obviously that can't be the problem.

It's up to Draw Distance (or Render Distance) and LODs, that's what's valid for DCS to work, and they shouldn't be adjusting this to appease how it looks on different resolutions, that should be an optional setting, the highest proper resolution should be targeted, but well, the higest that market offers, it shouldn't look that bad on the resolutions just behind, if they targeted like 50K might look bad on all of our resolutions so I guess "proper" might be a bit relative in this case for the time being.

And then you need to distinguish between ZOOM and FOV, and infact DCS itself confuses between these in some cases, there's the control "Zoom in slow" which actually changes the FOV of the F1 view. Remember, F views have their own separately adjustable FOVs, the usual zooming in F2 view with the mouse wheel changes the zoom level, not the F2 FOV.

Note on how to handle different resolutions:

Keep the same ratio of render-sizes (on set FoV and Zoom-levels).

If the ratio is kept across resolutions, it's equalized a bit. More than now.

This, ofc, presumes that all models in game behave the same (Same LoD steps etc). Which they, unfortunately, don't do. :(

Well the post process dots are back, which is good I think. And its not a equal distance for all modules, it varies depending on their size. Ive been buzzing around intercepting all sorts, and the big ones I can spot up to 25nm or so away, same alt, blue sky, where a MiG-21 for example doesnt show until around 5-6nm.

This goes for night too, here the dot is just brighter. I initially thought, oh cool, nav lights. But no, has nothing to do with nav lights sadly - or afterburners. Imo, this dot shouldnt be visible, unless the plane has some sort of lights going.

At night the key spotting problem shows best though. We can see them fine at distance, but bring them in to around 2nm, where the post dot disappears, and you often go completely blind on the bogey, it just vanishes in thin air.

Imo, these post process dots should never stop rendering. Keep them on (or keep them on until 500m), so planes dont 'vanish' in thin air. Makes no sense that I can track a contact visually against the ground at 5nm, but at 2 I cant see it anymore.

Edit: And the dot doesnt just appear at distance, they fade in, which is very nice too.

Remembered I had a screenshot. Just cant remember what I was chasing there, hehe. I think its 4 F-15E's, who's dot have just started to render in at 15nm, just above the flight path marker (some sharpness lost in jpg compression).

Nice.

Progress!

Needs tuning though, as you say there Knock-Knock. ^^

My favorite part of the view models is when you turn off your AA and you can see fighters from 20+nm, with AA on at around 10nm

My favorite part of the view models is when you turn off your AA and you can see fighters from 20+nm, with AA on at around 10nm

I didnt experience any difference in spotting distance in VR, with MSAA on or off. I was able to make out the bogey at the same distance - notice them render in. Very faint of course, and I knew pretty much exactly where to look.

I didnt try on monitor with and without MSAA.

But with the dot being added in post, it could just be added as the last thing, on top of the MSAA, so the dot wouldnt be affected.

@Cylon

You mean a guy with a monitor sees better than somebody with the equivalent of a low-to-midrange cell phone strapped to his face? Imagine that @@ People running at 4k or triple monitors have to live with crappy framerates, people.running with crappy monitors or VR headsets have to live with low resolution =)

I remember this thread lol Anyway, the OP is mostly an illustration of poorly made LoDs =/ They do indeed need a once over, unfortunately that sort of thing had to be done model by model, one at a time...... They have improved a few specific units, I know, but it's going to be forever before you stop seeing this stuff =/

I'll offset that -1 with a +2

 

This one needs to be a top priority

^^:thumbup:

@Cylon

You mean a guy with a monitor sees better than somebody with the equivalent of a low-to-midrange cell phone strapped to his face? Imagine that @@ People running at 4k or triple monitors have to live with crappy framerates, people.running with crappy monitors or VR headsets have to live with low resolution =)

 

 

I remember this thread lol Anyway, the OP is mostly an illustration of poorly made LoDs =/ They do indeed need a once over, unfortunately that sort of thing had to be done model by model, one at a time...... They have improved a few specific units, I know, but it's going to be forever before you stop seeing this stuff =/

First, I have a 3K monitor, and I have great framesrates - :P Would still like to be able to have realistic spotting distances of air targets.

Secondly, What is worrying about the LODs is that the newer model (the Blitz truck) is the one that's worse off! So something failed in the QA yet again :P (The Blitz truck is, AFAIK, made by a partner to ED).