Altitude perception/sensation

It's hard for pancake simmers to discuss this topic. Get into VR and be amazed

+1 :thumbup:

I have yet to ever fly a PC sim whether it was VR or not that ever gave me the impression or sensation that I was at any altitude other than a computer generated one. I do not think that it's possible. I flew a $40,ooo,ooo dollar hydraulic simulator at a company called Flight Safety International here in Tucson about 7 years ago. I sat in real cockpits and felt every physical sensation (It was very cool), but when I looked out of the windows, it did not look like I was anywhere but in front of a projection screen. To my mind, this is a sim and that's pretty much the jest of it. I never expect reality. It's only disappoints. No matter who's software you use.

I have yet to ever fly a PC sim whether it was VR or not that ever gave me the impression or sensation that I was at any altitude other than a computer generated one. I do not think that it's possible. I flew a $40,ooo,ooo dollar hydraulic simulator at a company called Flight Safety International here in Tucson about 7 years ago. I sat in real cockpits and felt every physical sensation (It was very cool), but when I looked out of the windows, it did not look like I was anywhere but in front of a projection screen. To my mind, this is a sim and that's pretty much the jest of it. I never expect reality. It's only disappoints. No matter who's software you use.

That's interesting. My experience has been completely the opposite of yours. But I think it's just a personal perception thing. Everyone sees things like that differently. I've flown in lots of big $$ sims from the FSI and other airline sims to full 360 domed simulators for fighters. In all of them to some degree - I felt like the altitude & speed sensation has been realistic. Especially close to the ground such as on an approach or flying a low level. Yes, I agree that the large aircraft cockpit sims like FSI have far less of an altitude sensation because you're looking out of small windows. But even IRL at 30K cruising over terrain, there is not much of a sensation of altitude either IMHO in the real large jets. Stuff moves by very slowly.

VR, in my humble opinion, gets as close to those 360 deg FOV domed fighter simulators as you can get without paying $30M.

That's interesting. My experience has been completely the opposite of yours. But I think it's just a personal perception thing. Everyone sees things like that differently. I've flown in lots of big $$ sims from the FSI and other airline sims to full 360 domed simulators for fighters. In all of them to some degree - I felt like the altitude & speed sensation has been realistic. Especially close to the ground such as on an approach or flying a low level. Yes, I agree that the large aircraft cockpit sims like FSI have far less of an altitude sensation because you're looking out of small windows. But even IRL at 30K cruising over terrain, there is not much of a sensation of altitude either IMHO in the real large jets. Stuff moves by very slowly.

 

VR, in my humble opinion, gets as close to those 360 deg FOV domed fighter simulators as you can get without paying $30M.

Agreed, level D sims usually have a beam splitter for their out the window display which gives depth. I was surprised the first time I flew one. Also agree on the VR comment, and love the FOV the Pimax gives me.

I will also say that in real life sometimes my altitude perception changes from day to day even though I have flown around my current area for about 1000 hours. Granted, I don't get above 10,000' that often so I'm not getting big view changes of multiple 10k feet, but I will tell you focusing outside during big vertical change visual maneuvers, like chandelles, I can sometimes look inside and swear the altimeter is off by at least 1000 feet but the altimeter setting tells me it's right. In the landing pattern, I can generally tell you if we're low or high, but not by a specific amount other than a little or a lot and even then going to unfamiliar airports it will be much harder to tell.

I think improved cloud modeling will help height perception in DCS.

I feel like dcs world altitudes are kind of wrong, for example, the F2 camera bar that shows your speed, altitude, bearing, AoA, etc. Says (100 Meters) and it feels like you are going at 30/50ish meters.

 

Other example, when you fly at 10000 Meters (30000ft) it doesn't feel like 10000 Meters, feels way lower compared to other sims.

 

Any thought about this?:huh:

The OP is correct that the sim is off.

I've always thought it was. However, it is incorrect in the opposite way he sees it as incorrect.

The sim tells you that you are flying at a higher altitude than you really are; at least at low altitudes, anyway. This is especially obvious when flying over the ocean in DCS.

I know what the ground and trees look like at 2,000' above sea level but in DCS you have to be at 7,000' for it to look like you are at 2,000'. ..And over the ocean when you look at the waves and it looks like you are 25' above them, DCS tell you you're are still at 200'.

I'm glad the OP brought this up. It should have been brought up before. Maybe it has.

It's hard for pancake simmers to discuss this topic. Get into VR and be amazed

+1

The OP is correct that the sim is off.

 

 

I've always thought it was. However, it is incorrect in the opposite way he sees it as incorrect.

 

 

 

The sim tells you that you are flying at a higher altitude than you really are; at least at low altitudes, anyway. This is especially obvious when flying over the ocean in DCS.

 

 

 

I know what the ground and trees look like at 2,000' above sea level but in DCS you have to be at 7,000' for it to look like you are at 2,000'. ..And over the ocean when you look at the waves and it looks like you are 25' above them, DCS tell you you're are still at 200'.

 

 

 

I'm glad the OP brought this up. It should have been brought up before. Maybe it has.

I feel its exactly this. Its glaring when you switching from a different sim to this one. There is something really wrong with the sense of altitude, depth and earth curvature.

On that picture earlier, the mountains seen from 40k feet in the DCS picture look to be at the exact same altitude as the cloud cover at 20k in the other picture. And it seems the earth doesn't curve (or does so very gently) in DCS which further takes away from the feeling of depth and altitude.

Yeah that's what I thought too until I tested it out. You can only see stars in the top 30 degs from zenith. As long as the sun is up, the horizon stays opaque blue regardless of the time of day.

 

The main issue here is that the sky near the horizon is too opaque blue at high altitude. You have to reach 90,000 ft before it starts to look like 45,000 ft IRL.

 

 

DCS at 90,000 ft

 

Real Life at 45,000 ft

Your "IRL pic" Is not what you may see IRL with your eyes! DCS Sky color is pretty close to real sky at all levels. The only false sensation of heigh is - i think - due to the lack of peripheral field of vision that your brain will not correlates as speed and so as height. But trust me, even at FL600, sky is not so dark as in your pic. This is due to contrast adaptation of camera: just compare the poor brightness of clouds under direct sun light in your picture...

Aim high!

Your "IRL pic" Is not what you may see IRL with your eyes! DCS Sky color is pretty close to real sky at all levels. The only false sensation of heigh is - i think - due to the lack of peripheral field of vision that your brain will not correlates as speed and so as height. But trust me, even at FL600, sky is not so dark as in your pic. This is due to contrast adaptation of camera: just compare the poor brightness of clouds under direct sun light in your picture...

 

 

Aim high!

From my amateur aerial photography, without proper lenses and other things, pictures look very different from what you see. And one sacrifice has to be made to get the other thing usually. Examples: to get a picture of even part of the visible horizon, I have to use the panoramic lens on my phone but lose lots of the details that are easier to see. On the flip side, anytime I try to take a picture of a far away object with a standard lens, it cannot be pickup without the same detail. Everytime I try to take a picture of the moon or a city skyline 10 miles away, it looks much smaller than what I perceive with standard lenses. And then there is still the stereoscopic issue...

I'm not saying DCS is getting it done right, I'm saying there is, just like cameras, too many variables for me to tell. And even then it's going to change from setup to setup. I feel like I have better perception with my Pimax then I did my Rift S, but the Rift S was better than my 32" monitor. But then I might even say my triple monitor setup was better than the Rift S.

But it's all me guessing, even though I'm a 3000 hour piston airplane pilot. A fighter pilot that's flown higher altitudes and in more canopied aircraft could say different than me, probably a helicopter pilot would have a different option too, as would probably an airline/military heavy pilot that potentially averages the most time at higher altitudes. I would best trust a high time fighter pilot and then high time military helicopter pilot to comment on this since that's what we are simulating. Maybe I should get more DCS time in the Yak-52/Christensen because that would be most like what I fly to truly give my opinion of just "feels" right or wrong. But even then, that's probably only going to be valid for fellow Pimax 5k+ people.

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Note that the majority of what you see in the lower pic are agricultural/industrial buildings. These are big. The upper pic seems to be a more residential area. I would agree that in DCS, we seem to have not enough small buildings, at least in Caucasus. 

Guys, try seeing things from VR, complete different perspective. You really get a feeling of height, so you are kind of afraid looking down

Rocky mountains from 45k feet (same as in DCS):