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M2000c vs F18?


Dodly

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How will the M2000c do against the F18?,as far as i know they are both 4th gen,so does it mean they are more or less on equel level in an air to air scenario?

What will be the pro\cons for each of them compering to the other?

 

Thanks!


Edited by Dodly

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How will the M2000c do against the F18?,as far as i know they are both 4th gen,so does it mean they are more or less on equel level in an air to air scenario?

What will be the pro\con for each of them compering to the other?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

F/A18C lot 20 is a 1998 production ( pretty much last batch) of the legacy Hornets. and it further 21st century modernized C model that we are getting from ED. The M2000C RDI was produced in 1987.

 

Whilst not available at early access the the F/A18C will eventually have HMCS and Aim9x. This will make off bore sight acquisition and firing a thing. Aim9X besides being off bore sight capable is a more modern missile that is supposed to be immune to flares. Unlike the M2000C the Hornet has Aim120 Amrams, whilst the Mirage is limited to Semi active guided Radar missile the 530D, which is more akin to a Aim7M sparrow.

 

Also Missile carry is in favour of the Hornet. M2000c can only cary x4 missiles max ( usually x2 IR and X2 Radar) THe hornet can carry Up to 10 air to air missiles.

 

Situational awareness between Hornet and allied flights should also be superior due to the Link 16.

 

 

France's answer to keep up with technology was to Introduce the Mirage 2000-5 in the latter part of the 1990s as a interim solution before Rafyale came about. In all honestly the M2000-5 would be more comparable to the Hornet being modeled here. Especially the Mk2 with improved multirole capabilities.

 

M2000C is basically an 80s bird and is more akin to very early 4th generation technology representative of that decade.


Edited by Kev2go
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F/A18C lot 20 is a 1998 production ( pretty much last batch) of the legacy Hornets. and it further 21st century modernized C model that we are getting from ED. The M2000C RDI was produced in 1987.

 

Whilst not available at early access the the F/A18C will eventually have HMCS and Aim9x. This will make off bore sight shots possible, and unlike the M2000C the Hornet has Aim120 Amrams, whilst the Mirage is limited to Semi active guided Radar missile the 530D, which is more akin to a Aim7M sparrow.

 

Also Missile carry is in favou of the Hornet. M2000c can only cary x4 missiles max ( usually x2 IR and X2 Radar) THe hornet can carry Up to 10 air to air missiles.

 

Situational awareness between Hornet and allied flights should also be superior due to the Link 16.

 

Thanks!

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Yup, Kev is right.

 

Also, the Mirage 2000C is a interceptor aircraft with secondary AG capability while the F/A-18C is a multi-role aircraft that would be tasked with air superiority. That would explain the missile capacity differences.

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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If you simulate an early F/A-18 with Aim-9 M/L and Aim-7M, it is a equal fight. The Hornet has a better Radar and more missiles, but the Mirage is about superior in most flight situations.

 

Mirage 2000 would have the upper hand in high altitude/ high speed fight thanks to lower drag. APG-73 wouldn't offer much advantages in Fox 1 fight.

 

Fox 3 is a strong point for F/A-18C, but it wasn't available to Hornet in Gulf War for instance.

The Hornet had an occasion to shine by shooting down an incoming MiG 21 with AIM-7 without dropping its Mk-84 for the tasked AG mission.

17 Jan 91 / SUNLINER 410 / VFA-81 / Mongillo / F/A-18C / 163502 / MiG-21 / AIM-7

https://web.archive.org/web/20090604224140/http://128.121.102.226/aakill.html

 

Even if the Mirage is known to handle very well at low speed, it isn't something to do against the Hornet which is a monster in low speed arena.


Edited by jojo

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Mirage 2000 would have the upper hand in high altitude/ high speed fight thanks to lower drag. APG-73 wouldn't offer much advantages in Fox 1 fight.

 

Fox 3 is a strong point for F/A-18C, but it wasn't available to Hornet in Gulf War for instance.

The Hornet had an occasion to shine by shooting down an incoming MiG 21 with AIM-7 without dropping its Mk-84 for the tasked AG mission.

17 Jan 91 / SUNLINER 410 / VFA-81 / Mongillo / F/A-18C / 163502 / MiG-21 / AIM-7

https://web.archive.org/web/20090604224140/http://128.121.102.226/aakill.html

 

Even if the Mirage is known to handle very well at low speed, it isn't something to do against the Hornet which is a monster in low speed arena.

 

Well the Hornets didnt have AN/APG73 radar during the gulf war either. A and early C models used the An/ApG65, with the 73 Phase 1 coming in 1994+ F/A18C production batches. with the PHase 2 upgrade which was centered around High Resolution Mapping coming around in the early 2000's i think.

 

So you cant fully simulate a gulf war hornet due to the fact its using a Superior radar to what was available back then in 1991.

 

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Well the Hornets didnt have AN/APG73 radar during the gulf war either. A and early C models used the An/ApG65, with the 73 Phase 1 coming in 1994+ F/A18C production batches. with the PHase 2 upgrade which was centered around High Resolution Mapping coming around in the early 2000's i think.

 

So you cant fully simulate a gulf war hornet due to the fact its using a Superior radar to what was available back then in 1991.

 

You're right, but for AA simulation purpose, put the good missiles and you won't be that far :thumbup:

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Also Missile carry is in favour of the Hornet. M2000c can only cary x4 missiles max ( usually x2 IR and X2 Radar) THe hornet can carry Up to 10 air to air missiles.

 

It's worse than that, it can carry 12.

 

You have the two wingtip stations, that will have AIM-9's, then you have the two "shoulder" stations that can accommodate an AIM-120 or AIM-7 each, and then you have four under wing stations that can have two AIM-120's on each.

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It's worse than that, it can carry 12.

 

You have the two wingtip stations, that will have AIM-9's, then you have the two "shoulder" stations that can accommodate an AIM-120 or AIM-7 each, and then you have four under wing stations that can have two AIM-120's on each.

 

Yes, this one is good for pictures, not used that much IRL :music_whistling:

 

AIM-120_FA-18C.jpg

 

Overall, yes, the F/A-18 Hornet has better weapon system than Mirage 2000C RDI (or anything of that time IMHO), and carry more missiles.

 

Like Kev2go said, the Mirage 2000-5 was launched to face the concurrence on export market. And it's a potent Fox 3 fighter too.


Edited by jojo

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It's worse than that, it can carry 12.

 

You have the two wingtip stations, that will have AIM-9's, then you have the two "shoulder" stations that can accommodate an AIM-120 or AIM-7 each, and then you have four under wing stations that can have two AIM-120's on each.

 

:doh:

 

he my mistake true enough. Red pilots will have to contend with 2 Blue spamramm planes :lol:

 

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:doh:

 

he my mistake true enough. Red pilots will have to contend with 2 Blue spamramm planes :lol:

 

 

 

And some long range Phoenix spam to boot

 

 

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No point comparing the -5 as we don’t have it here. There is a definite capability gap for these 2 planes in game with the f18 having the distinct fox3 advantage in a2a and a massive array of weapons for a2g that can keep thing interesting longer than the mirage or provide more potential such as full on SEAD capabilities that the mirage has none.

If razbam were a bit lenient with regard to version fidelity we could get an Exocet to spice things up for the mirage at some point but the comparison generally weighs in favor of the hornet for versatility and variety.

The possibility of an upgraded version has basically been ruled out atm due to a lot of systems on the -5 still being classified...

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  • 8 months later...

Today was an interesting day, i visited a mirage 2000 airbase for an international air show. There were present Spanish (and a swiss) f-18's with their crews so i grabbed the chance to ask some questions .

Word by word dialogue

Q : have you flown a dogfight against a Mirage 2000 ?

A: Υes

Q : That must be an interesting fight, right? Both aircrafts are known for the slow speed handling

A: The Mirage ? No … (shaking his head).

Q: Due to the lift the delta lift produces..

A: Νο, The f-18 is the aircraft that has excellent nose authority and can turn well with 120kts

Q: I heard the Mirage can fly even at 100 kts …

A: No no no, the mirage has a bigger '' circle '' (he made a circular movement whith his hand in the air, i 'm sure he meant a bigger turn radius).

Q: So the Hornet is a better dogfighter ?

Α : Absolutely . The Mirage 2000 is not quite good in dogfight ( .. i thought WTF?)

 

Q:So you have won the fight(s) against the Mirage ?

A: Υes (shaking his head like wanting to express : easily).

Back to the Mirage pilot who was standing few meters away:

Have you flown against a Hornet?

Me personally? No (… sad).

I told him about the opinion of the Hornet Pilot, and he said : it's true the mirage can fly with 100 kts.

Since i have posted / asked this in the past

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3310982&postcount=22

and since i have readed this https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3440838&postcount=19

 

i grabbed the chance to ask:

Q : So if the pilot banks 80 - 90 degr., - no movement in the vertical - and pulls hard aft stick, the aircraft will reach 100 kts , despite the 29 AoA limitation?

A : Yes, since it will bleed the speed.

 

My notices now : the speed bleed rate of course depends on aircraft weight, configuration, altitude. Also, the pilot (and i) hadn't talked with concrete parameters but was speeking generally (don't wanted to freak him out).

In game at 15000 ft (which i think is a standard reference altitude for dogfight performance) with full internal fuel (so not a conservative value), banking the hud cross at the horizon line and pulling back , the aircraft doesn't slow down below 144 kts. 100 kts i can reach in a dogfight hardly and only pulling high bank in the vertical (30 - 40 degr. with vertical bank).

My conclusion is

1) the personal opinion of a real hornet pilot about mirage's dogfight performance is not decisive. I don't know what fuel / weapons configurations both aircrafts had and what the experience level of the mirage pilot was (though the Spanish pilot was very young).

I wanted only to share the dialogue, which i find it personally interesting

, since it's coming directly from the real world. (on a side note i asked also the mirage pilot, who was older, about the performance of the Su-27, that visited the Mirage AB few years ago - you can find the respective video in youtube. He said aerodynamically it was very strong, but the problem with the eastern technology is that it doesn't ''clasp'' with the western one).

2) About the slow speed performance Razbam is the only one that have flown the real simulator , have direct input from the FAF (input deeper than a small conversation with a single pilot) and they are the only one that know what they can / are allowed to simulate with the available data. But i wanted to point out the above, since it's still real input. Waiting eagerly to the end of the year to see if we will have any improvement on the FM also.

If someone is interested, i can share a very detailed and with concrete numbers pointed touch and go training pattern, that the mirage pilot was kindly enough to explain to me.

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Yes off course. Please share :thumbup:

 

Otherwise yep, the Mirage can perform 100kt level flight, it doesn’t mean you want to go there in the fight.

 

The Hornet is very good performer at slow speed.


Edited by jojo

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  • 11 months later...

Hi.

Yesterday my friends and I tested a fast dogfight using only the gun. In practice, flying Mirage is unbeatable, regardless of what colleagues fly, F-18 or Su-27. Only the Mirage on the other side is a demanding opponent.

W10 64bit, i9 9900K, 64GB RAM, GTX 1070Ti, 27" FullHD monitor

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Hi.

Yesterday my friends and I tested a fast dogfight using only the gun. In practice, flying Mirage is unbeatable, regardless of what colleagues fly, F-18 or Su-27. Only the Mirage on the other side is a demanding opponent.

 

The Mirage appears to be weaker in a "two circle" fight, although it has a good instantaneous turn rate, it can't sustain it.

 

 

Circle_flow_in_fighter_combat.JPG

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You can believe it or not, but Mirage can stay in the air in situations where Hornet can't do it anymore. In fact, it dominates in every situation. I skip the armament, I'm only talking about flight parameters.

W10 64bit, i9 9900K, 64GB RAM, GTX 1070Ti, 27" FullHD monitor

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