AIM-54 palette weight/drag

How big is the effect on performance of having the palettes in game? From what I've read, IRL it was a fairly large weight and drag penalty, as well as negating some of the body-lift benefits from the wide tunnel fuselage. Is this effect fully modelled already?

And is it worth it, for example, taking only 2 Phoenixes under the wings and 4x AIM-7 in the tunnel if you expect to go knife fighting after your initial TWS shots?

Its a good question, worth testing - observations are however that the extra drag and weight is modelled but would have to get tacview and a calculator lol and lose a few hours! Hopefully its not like the terrible Hornet drag model which needs work.

So a 14 would never have taken off the boat with 6 54's anyway for a standard CAP patrol as the base wow with fuel reserve would have put him outside of the recovery landing configs. So unless fired off he would have to jettison a minimum of 2 very expensive missiles and be heavy back on the boat with 4.

More realistic would be a 2 3 2 approach however nobody is going to load that in MP as nobody cares about FLE or hitting the Jettison button and the 54, well that's a separate discussion.

What's the loadout specifically, 2 SW 3 SP 2 PH?

And if they were performing a bomber intercept mission would they fill up with 6 PH?

A 6PH loadout is only for the unlikely scenario when the Carrier Task Force is under attack by swarms of Backfires loaded with Kitchens. Even then, you would have enough F-14s in the air, that 4 PH is more than enough without going over the landing weight cap.

Some of the possible Phoenix loadout can either be:

2 SW, 2 SP, 4PH

2 SW, 3 SP, 2PH (I think this is the normal Cold War loadout).

And let us not forget the post-2004 A/A loadout of:

2 SW, 6 SP

I'm not talking about 6 PH loadouts. I'm asking about the peformance benefits of not taking palettes.

And if the standard loadout (2-3-2) has only 2 PH anyway, isn't the relatively rare but possible loadout of 2 SW, 2 PH, 4 SP, with the PH on the wings so you don't have any palettes, strictly better?

Also in MP, assuming I want a more balanced loadout not just PH spam, is the benefit of no palettes at the cost of only 2 PH worth it?

I remember reading somewhere that the tunnel palettes actually cause way less drag than having the Phoenixes on the wing stations. I always thought the 2-3-2 loadout was with two Phoenixes in the tunnel, one Sparrow at the back of the tunnel, and two more Sparrows under the wings.

edit: like this except two Sparrows are missing. Note how the launchers for the Phoenixes at the back of the tunnel are missing:

Those glove vanes though.

I vaguely recall discussion that the -54As required one of the tunnel palettes to house coolant for every Phoenix onboard. I don't recall if that was also true of the Charlie variant.

I remember reading somewhere that the tunnel palettes actually cause way less drag than having the Phoenixes on the wing stations.

This makes sense while you're still carrying the missiles. But after you fire the Phoenixes from 2-3-2 the palettes are still there causing drag. Wing Phos are just gone.

This is the loadout I'm talking about:

Yes on pallets cooling As.

The big winners in the tunnel are Sparrow; they're indexed as 2 in the tunnel versus 6 on the stubs. The pallets incur a significant penalty in and of themselves. Drag indices are as follows:

Pallets (any or all four stations): 10

AIM-54 on forward stations (3, 6): 12 each

AIM-54 on rear stations (4, 5) behind AIM-54s on 3, 6: 8 each

AIM-54 on 4, 5 with no AIM-54 ahead: 12 each

AIM-54 stub (1, 8 ) pylon: 3 each

AIM-54 on stub pylon: 12 each

Also note: drag indexes for the tunnel are reduced by 5 as a whole. Thus four Sparrows in the tunnel become a total index of 3 (from 8 ), whereas four Phoenix are 45- 10+(12+8 )+(12+8 )-5.

As noted you need the pump for Phoenix on the As. You can do the stubs alone on the sealed Cs.

Nice, thanks lunatic. So if I'm reading that correctly, drag index of 2 PH in tunnel and 3 SP on wings plus tunnel is:

(10+12+12+2) -5 + (3+6)*2 = 49

And 4 SP in the tunnel plus 2 PH on wings:

2*4 -5 + (3+12)*2 = 33

Wow... 16 less drag index and an extra Sparrow!

Is the pump restriction for the 54A modelled in game? I assume in my picture above those are Cs, especially since that's an F-14D carrying them. But I'm sure I've seen this loadout for early 14As.

The stub pylons I listed are for the Phoenix alone. I'll check the tables for the Sparrow stubs later, but you should see a similar number- memory says the Sparrow stubs are 2 rather than 3, but don't quote me yet.

The rest of the story:

Sparrow stub adapters: 2 each

Sparrow on 1b, 8b: 6 each

Sidewinder adapter: 1 each

Sidewinder on any position: 8 each

And for reference:

External tanks: 11 each

Tank fairings: 1 each

Yes on pallets cooling As.

 

The big winners in the tunnel are Sparrow; they're indexed as 2 in the tunnel versus 6 on the stubs. The pallets incur a significant penalty in and of themselves. Drag indices are as follows:

 

Pallets (any or all four stations): 10

AIM-54 on forward stations (3, 6): 12 each

AIM-54 on rear stations (4, 5) behind AIM-54s on 3, 6: 8 each

AIM-54 on 4, 5 with no AIM-54 ahead: 12 each

AIM-54 stub (1, 8 ) pylon: 3 each

AIM-54 on stub pylon: 12 each

 

Also note: drag indexes for the tunnel are reduced by 5 as a whole. Thus four Sparrows in the tunnel become a total index of 3 (from 8 ), whereas four Phoenix are 45- 10+(12+8 )+(12+8 )-5.

 

As noted you need the pump for Phoenix on the As. You can do the stubs alone on the sealed Cs.

Interesting info, do you have a publicly available source for this?

Also note: drag indexes for the tunnel are reduced by 5 as a whole. Thus four Sparrows in the tunnel become a total index of 3 (from 8 ), whereas four Phoenix are 45- 10+(12+8 )+(12+8 )-5.

I'm fairly certain that each weapons rail has a DI of 10. Also, I've never read about substracting 5 for tunnel drag. That doesn't mean it's not true, it seems a little illogical however, since it would mean that 4SP would have less drag than 4 open cavities. Anyhow, the DI for 4 tunnel mounted PH should be 80, not 45.

As noted you need the pump for Phoenix on the As. You can do the stubs alone on the sealed Cs.

There are three variants AFAIK: A, C and C+(also called ECCM sealed). Only the last one does not require cooling. The normal C, which I believe is the one we have in DCS, needs cooling just like the A. In any case, I don't think you would omitt the forward fairing since it does provide an aerodynamic benefit at the cost of only 100lbs.

F14AAP-1.1 includes the notation of the -5 as note 2 on the standard data. AAA-1.1 doesn't, because there is an adjustment from what classifies as zero ; in the A model document, zero index is with the plugs installed in the four channel slots, whereas the later manual works up.

As to your math, the examples in the aforementioned data sections don't jive with your math. They're clear as to the weights, no reason they wouldn't be to the index adjustments.

And you're forgetting 450 lbs of weight per station on the pallets- it's not just 118 lbs of fairing. You don't get a bonus lugging them with stub Phoenix only if you don't need the cooling.

There are three variants AFAIK: A, C and C+(also called ECCM sealed). Only the last one does not require cooling. The normal C, which I believe is the one we have in DCS, needs cooling just like the A. In any case, I don't think you would omitt the forward fairing since it does provide an aerodynamic benefit at the cost of only 100lbs.

DCS F-14B allows you to take and launch wing phoenixes only with no palettes fitted.

F14AAP-1.1 includes the notation of the -5 as note 2 on the standard data.

Indeed. I didn't look in the 1.1 for drag. Other sources on that seem to differ.

As to your math, the examples in the aforementioned data sections don't jive with your math. They're clear as to the weights, no reason they wouldn't be to the index adjustments.

Don't know about the 'jive' but more specialized documents state unambigiously that the drag index per PH on either station 3,4,5 or 6 is 10 suspension plus 12/8 missile.

And you're forgetting 450 lbs of weight per station on the pallets- it's not just 118 lbs of fairing. You don't get a bonus lugging them with stub Phoenix only if you don't need the cooling.

I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were proposing carrying for tunnel mounted PH but omitting the forward fairing. When carrying them on stations 1/8 it is of course beneficial to remove the center weapons rails altogether if no stores are carried there.

I would prefer tunnel mounted PH however , since it results in far less weight asymmetry if you happen to use only one missile.

Don't know about the 'jive' but more specialized documents state unambigiously that the drag index per PH on either station 3,4,5 or 6 is 10 suspension plus 12/8 missile.

Something-something-20th letter of the alphabet Volume III?

Yeah. I definitely get what you're saying. My concern after having read through much of that a couple of years after finding the P document, however- and the reason I've mentioned the information from the 1.1s as is, is that as a matter of direct usefulness one would expect the calibrations to the used indexes to be closer, at least for the given era. There seems to be a margin of "wash" in the stores tables as the stubs don't have base values, the -5 tunnel, the example noted, etc.

It'd be interesting to see a later edition of either pub in that series than those I can put to hand to see if there was carriage or information post-strike test and implementation. I'm happy to be wrong on the tabular stuff if the end result is more accurate.

I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were proposing carrying for tunnel mounted PH but omitting the forward fairing.

I misunderstood you as well- hence the comment about the missing weight. Either way, neither of us are wrong insofar as wanting the work herein to be wrong, and like I said- that's fine with me.

A 6PH loadout is only for the unlikely scenario when the Carrier Task Force is under attack by swarms of Backfires loaded with Kitchens. Even then, you would have enough F-14s in the air, that 4 PH is more than enough without going over the landing weight cap.

 

Some of the possible Phoenix loadout can either be:

2 SW, 2 SP, 4PH

2 SW, 3 SP, 2PH (I think this is the normal Cold War loadout).

 

And let us not forget the post-2004 A/A loadout of:

2 SW, 6 SP

Well, the HB sparrows are bugged doodoo at the moment so I'll be skipping the 2 SW, 6 SP loadout for awhile. But thanks for the details! I wanted to use a more realistic loadout

Something-something-20th letter of the alphabet Volume III?

Maybe, who knows ;)

The 1.1 floating around in the internet is a preliminary one AFAIK. But you are right in that if one is to use that document as a reference, the DIs in there should be used. Anyway, with the current let's say not entirely perfect drag system in DCS (I recall an increase in drag after firing a PH from station 1/9), such details won't matter right now.

There may come a day when the strength of stores induced drag is permitted to be controlled by the third party, independent of dynamics post separation. A day when drag indices and performance tables are more easily matched by automated processes without needing a permanent loop of confirmation against global values. But it is not this day. This day developers fight!