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S3 Refuel


Cunning_Fox

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S3 Refuel

 

How do you correct for PIO in F-14? It feels like my input comes 5 seconds later even with 0 curves. It stays in the same spot and then it starts moving again.

 

Unless I have a death grip on the joystick it is hard to keep it still... maybe I’ll reduce my deadzone to 0. That should make my hand travel less.

 

Edit: if I record a video your eyes will bleed - all the settings are lowest except textures and the frame rate is like 20. It’s flyable though.

 

 

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You’re flying too slowly and making too big an initial control movement. Control during tanking should be fingertips. You want a very small deadzone on the stick and a slight curve as well. And very small movements.

 

Setting the tanker faster will allow you to fly a more responsive aircraft.

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agreed with everything deano said

recording footage would actually help diagnosis way more than you trying to describe it by text

 

also i dont advise you practice too hard, trying to pack too much into one session only leads to fatigue and frustration. your body needs time to process and internalize, so just put it aside and come back tomorrow.


Edited by probad
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agreed with everything deano said

recording footage would actually help diagnosis way more than you trying to describe it by text

 

also i dont advise you practice too hard, trying to pack too much into one session only leads to fatigue and frustration. your body needs time to process and internalize, so just put it aside and come back tomorrow.

 

Yep you’re right. You can only learn so much in one session. I think once you go over about 45 mins to one hour of concentrated practicing something then you need to stop and go do something different and then come back to it another day. At some point it’ll just “click” - well hopefully anyway.

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How do you correct for PIO in F-14? It feels like my input comes 5 seconds later even with 0 curves. It stays in the same spot and then it starts moving again.

this is something that depends on practice and experience. you need to "stay ahead of the airplane" and what that means is you need to have a good idea of how and when your airplane will respond to your input ahead of time.

ex., if you want to push forward, you blip the throttle ahead, and then immediately pull back --don't wait to see how much you accelerate, because by the time you see the acceleration kick in, your reactionary input will be far too late.

you need to think of entire sets of "input sequences" and not simply single inputs.

 

as for countering pio after it has developed: the simple way is to just let go. after you start the pio chances are you're going continue to keep making the same timing mistakes that initiated the pio, so all you will do is amplify the oscillation even more. letting go at least prevents further compounding of the pio, and the oscillation will eventually lose energy.

active pio cancellation is simply an extension of staying ahead of the aircraft. when you understand the aircraft's response characteristics, you can appropriately time the correct countering commands to disrupt and damp out the oscillation.

 

watching your clip, i think you're definitely coming in too high. the wake is not helping you settle your aircraft in a steady state in preparation for contact. part of the problem it looks like is your head position; since you're not using trackir you can't easily look upwards so you are settling for a straight in sort of approach to keep sight of the tanker. maybe try making a snapview that has your head position moved forward a few inches so you can get a better vertical field of view out of the windscreen so you can come in at the tanker from a lower altitude.

you should be lower than the basket when you come in, because throttling up will naturally cause you to balloon upwards, allowing you to float right into the basket.

 

lastly, you're not actually setting the wings in bomb mode. the aircraft's center of lift changes as the wings swing and that definitely does not help you.


Edited by probad
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I can connect the TrackIr to my Macbook no problem, the thing is, when I move my head forward I have no frame of reference, and I use the Nav ruler for that purpose on approach. Once that is gone, I'm just totally lost.

 

 

Also, Tomcat always wants to go up. It's like the vortex of the wash is a magnet. Even if I add a little throttle it starts rising really quickly. It's hard to anticipate because you have to get the moment JUST RIGHT, add stick too soon and you will drop down and out of the refuelling position.

 

 

Once I'm in the wash I am stuck there. Usually though, I never get there in the first place, since I approach from a lower postion. But, as you said, Tomcat baloons upwards.

 

 

I knew I forgot something. Dammit. I should've set the bomb mode. I was too preoccupied with making the video. After about 40 attempts I need a break.

 

 

As for PIO - in the helicopter I can easily anticipate the movement. I "feel" it. Here, it's totally different because the movement is not continuous. It sort of stops for a second, then starts swaying again giving you the false idea that everything is well trimmed and fine.

 

 

I feel so incompetent. I saw a guy fire a Maverick whilst refueling inverted in an F/A-18 on Hoggit!


Edited by Cunning_Fox
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I can connect the TrackIr to my Macbook no problem, the thing is, when I move my head forward I have no frame of reference, and I use the Nav ruler for that purpose on approach.

i dont quite understand this, can you explain?

the tanker is your frame of reference, it should always be in view even when you are approaching from below

attachment.php?attachmentid=208596&stc=1&d=1555159589

 

if you are familiar with helicopters then just think of throttle as collective, when you increase it, you go up. so what do you have to do? compensate at the same time with a bit of down pitch. you should not need much force, more like a gentle "suggestion" of pitch down.

 

it is common when stressed to wield the stick with a death grip, but it only makes things worse because your muscle movements will be rough. release the stick and relax -- you trimmed correctly right? then letting go of the stick shouldnt be a big deal.

approach.thumb.png.da273780119535b830f914c9f15d291c.png


Edited by probad
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As above - 40 degrees minimum wing sweep is compulsory for refueling the Tomcat - so much easier! A couple of times I have been struggling to plug in and was like wtf - then checked the wings and for some reason they had swept fully fwd, re-swept them back and straight in.

 

Just sit off the tankers wing, sweep yours to 40+ and trim up the aircraft at the tankers speed, then move in.

 

The tanker speed makes a big difference too - a lot twitchier to refuel if you are too fast - try around 250-300 knots.

 

Personally I have found the F-14 the easiest a/c to tank with in DCS - generally just pop it in first or second go. Staying plugged when the tanker chucks it into a turn is another story lol. Saying that, I don't really like the Viking compared to the KCV-130/135 as much, and it carries bugger all fuel as well.

 

Even the old rule of 'don't watch the basket' doesn't really apply as the F-14 is so docile if you are gentle, you can generally just move fwd and guide the probe straight into the basket.

 

 

Just FYI but IIRC, the max speed for the S3 when refueling is less than 250 knots. I will ask again but one of the guys I fly with and have known for 20 years was an S3 guy. It came from him. I get it, second hand info but...

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Just FYI but IIRC, the max speed for the S3 when refueling is less than 250 knots. I will ask again but one of the guys I fly with and have known for 20 years was an S3 guy. It came from him. I get it, second hand info but...

 

 

 

I knew there was a reason I’ve set it to about 250 knots.

 

 

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ias though right? remember mission editor is groundspeed

 

If you’re talking to me, yes. Ground speed doesn’t matter. IAS

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It does matter in the Mission Editor, as that is GS. Set the tanker to 250 knots in the ME and you are gonna be in trouble. Generally 336 in the ME = 250 IAS @ 15,000'.

 

225-ish KIAS for the S3 is fine, but a little on the slow side, while tanking at 200KIAS is a PITA. Generally with the KC-130 250 IAS is the sweet sopt.

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lol

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Wait, so first you say 250 is too slow, but now it’s the “sweet spot”?

 

 

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The difference between 250kn ground speed and 250kn IAS if the tanker is up at 15K.

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My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again.

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It took me a while to get it right with the S3 - basically that was all I did in DCS until I got it the first time (as seen here). And continued practice has definitely made me better.

 

Honestly, since the S3 is so slow, I think having your wings swept as far forward as possible without engaging auto sweep is worth the “cheat,” but maybe that’s just me.

 

Learning with the S3 made the KC-135 and KC-130 so much easier xD

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It does matter in the Mission Editor, as that is GS. Set the tanker to 250 knots in the ME and you are gonna be in trouble. Generally 336 in the ME = 250 IAS @ 15,000'.

 

225-ish KIAS for the S3 is fine, but a little on the slow side, while tanking at 200KIAS is a PITA. Generally with the KC-130 250 IAS is the sweet sopt.

 

I meant that GS doesn’t matter if we’re talking real flying and that’s what I was referring to.

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The difference between 250kn ground speed and 250kn IAS if the tanker is up at 15K.

 

 

I know the difference between IAS and Ground Speed. Hence, when you set it at 250 ground speed it flies at 166.

 

 

Besides, the guy was saying absolute opposite, and I don't think he paid attention to anything i've said in this thread since I spoke specifically about S3 refuelling. And he made a mission with a KC-130.

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:megalol:

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Sounds like somebody didn’t calibrate their throttle curves to the Tomcats fuel flow. Look at the fuel flow tape. If it spikes up 3000 lbs before settling when you’ve only moved the throttle a few milimeters, then you are going to have problems......in landing and especially refueling.

 

It takes negative curves to tame the fuel flow in the throttles mid range.

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Set throttles up as Slider axes with User Curves. Negative and positive curvature collapse or expand both ends, when what you need is to expand the center- thereby increasing resolution, and therefore control, and minimize the loss of throw on the bottom end. Linear axis settings easily lose 25% of usable range just past idle given the "flat" power curve of turbines in that region.

 

Get rid of the symmetry and increase the usable range. Stuck hand syndrome and power over/undershoots go away.

 

As for TIR, add a dead zone, a precise mode command on your controller, as well as a pause. Put your sight line where you want it, freeze it by keeping your head reasonably still, or using pause to keep it locked.


Edited by lunaticfringe
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