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S3 Refuel


Cunning_Fox

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How do you refuel from a Viking?

 

 

As soon as the cone is deployed, by some magic your plane starts violently moving up and down and even a miniscule change in throttle percentage either sends it forward into the refueling aircraft or makes it drop. This is by far the worst throttle in the game, and I have all the modules. The reaction time on this thing is atrocious and the travel that is needed for the adjustments is horrible - moving from 250 knots to over 300 is a 3mm difference on X-55, not to mention the confusing speedometer.

 

 

This is ridiculous. No matter how much you trim the plane beforehand, the trim goes out the window when he deploys the cone.

 

 

I spend maybe a quarter of the tank trying to connect. Not only is it not viable option to refuel, I would rather land on the carrier twenty times than do this.

 

 

There is no point of reference. You can't see him becasue the cone drops below the aircraft and he is blocked by the canopy support. So you just have to "imagine" where the aircraft is. I don't use TrackIR (I have it, but it's just awful). So, what's the way to go about this?


Edited by Cunning_Fox
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I'm relatively new to aerial refueling, but no way is this "the worst throttle in the game". No way. It just takes practice, like everything else.

 

I can't advise you on your view problems, because I've never fueled from an S3 in the Tomcat. I think Track IR would help, not hinder, but I guess that is your call.

 

Here is some advice that was passed on to me. Sweep your wings into Bomb Mode. The real recommendation is for 40 degrees manual sweep, but control of the aircraft is even easier when the wings are swept past 50. Back that far, the automatic operation of the slats and manuever flaps is inhibited, and your trim will be more constant. And since your wings are well aft of where the wings would be if in Auto mode, there isn't going to be any automated movement of them, either.


Edited by Ornithopter
meant to say slats not spoilers; corrected
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As above - 40 degrees minimum wing sweep is compulsory for refueling the Tomcat - so much easier! A couple of times I have been struggling to plug in and was like wtf - then checked the wings and for some reason they had swept fully fwd, re-swept them back and straight in.

 

Just sit off the tankers wing, sweep yours to 40+ and trim up the aircraft at the tankers speed, then move in.

 

The tanker speed makes a big difference too - a lot twitchier to refuel if you are too fast - try around 250-300 knots.

 

Personally I have found the F-14 the easiest a/c to tank with in DCS - generally just pop it in first or second go. Staying plugged when the tanker chucks it into a turn is another story lol. Saying that, I don't really like the Viking compared to the KCV-130/135 as much, and it carries bugger all fuel as well.

 

Even the old rule of 'don't watch the basket' doesn't really apply as the F-14 is so docile if you are gentle, you can generally just move fwd and guide the probe straight into the basket.

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I do it in bomb our auto mode, having watched the refueling tutorial video.

 

 

Seriously bad throttle control.

 

 

And you have to be at crash distance for him to deploy the cone. If you aren't - he will ask you to repeat attempt.

 

 

This is infuriating. You trim it just right, but because Tomcat is so vast and fat (like a cross between an overweight cat, a stingray, and a giant kite), any miniscule increase in throttle means you start climbing like crazy. So you have to adjust the trimmer like crazy, if you're trimmed to the tanker flight path - forget about it. I've already crashed three or four times into him. I'm doing stall speeds at the index, having set the Texaco dude to 260 knots in editor. Still, I either zoom past him or I lose him and never gain unless I jam the throttle forward until it reaches 400 (which takes years to bleed, since it takes years to deploy the airbrake).

 

 

And because the Viking is so small, I can't see him at all. Only the cone, which swings wildly as my aicraft loses all stability due to incredibly exaggerated jetwash.

 

 

It doesn't help that this is my first attempt at air refueling ever. But I swear to God, I could keep a damaged F-5E in a thunderstorm in a formation better than I can reach that cone in perfect weather on a Tomcat.


Edited by Cunning_Fox
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I wasn't able to catch the drogue with any plane until I watched a video where the guy says it's like 90% mental, and that the key is relaxing your muscles for precision control. It's the death-grip that ruins the process. Didn't make a note of who made the video, but whoever it was, thanks-Keep making them, because you're definitely helping.

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I think you're right. I've landed the Tomcat on the carrier at first attempt, but this is just driving me nuts.

 

 

"Use the Force" indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Looks like I've picked the wrong week to quit smoking"

 

-© Airplane


Edited by Cunning_Fox
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You really have to try to manual sweep back, at 55° you will be very stable at the expence of delay and more power requirement due to higher AOA, which base on your post it is what you need. With that AOA it will need more power and has delayed reaction so you will constantly think ahead for your speed adjustments.

 

I like the manual sweep to 25-30° because with the lower AOA I Don’t need agressive throttle adjustment. To the point where I barely move them and are very responsive. Also jet is not pointing up as much so i can see the tanker if i fly a little lower and maintain it

 

I gather the learning progress should be 55° then work your way to being able Auto sweep.


Edited by Revs

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Edit: Tried to help the guy and got abused for my trouble. Sigh..


Edited by VampireNZ

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S3 doesn't have TACAN, but the locking seems like a good idea.

 

 

That's the thing though - I don't fly behind it, I fly beneath it, but as soon as the cone drops the game thinks there is a giant plane in front of me and screws me up.

 

 

I've made it to the point where I use the nav mode and fix on the wing of the S3, which occupies the left bar of the heading ruler on top. I've almost caught it a few times, but then I forgot to silence Jester and he said "A LITTLE TO THE LEFT" and I jumped in my seat from nearly getting a heart attack and flew over the S3 swearing and shotuing.

 

 

Trust me, I'm on the radio all the time, it's all going "return pre-contact" "return pre-contact" "return pre-contact". I'd be banned if it was MP.

 

 

That's the thing, S3 is so small that it makes it hard to reference it since you can't really see anything unless you move your head forward. And when you do - you lose your point of reference. But more than this - it is so small, that when you try to catch up to it, it's just a dot in front of you. Then you add throttle to gain on him and by the time you see ti it zooms past you. If you do it slow - you'll never catch up to it. So you kind of have to predict when you need to pop the break.

 

 

And as for throttle I move it like 3 mm. I mean, seriously small movements. I've vertically landed a Harrier on a Carrier deck moving at 20 knots at night in storm, but this is even harder. My throttle is between 0 and 20%. Anything above that seems to make F-14 overtake the S3.

 

 

My curves are undajusted. Since they were unadjusted in real F-14, I am thinking why should I adjust them? And besides, if I adjust them for refuelling, they are going to be unresponsive in a dogfight. I have tried adjusting curves before up to +15 for roll and pitch and maybe -5 or +17 on pedals (depending on the airframe), but in the end I've settled on a +5 dead zone on all axes.

 

 

Thanks for the mission!


Edited by Cunning_Fox
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Nice one Vampire.

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Again sweep back and you’ll almost have to full after burner just to inch forward when you’re late on reaction.

 

On initial approach you can come at it fast deploy air break then roll on the side and yank the stick back, it’ll slow you down.

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Ok dude - here is what you need to do..

 

 

- Get Jester to set the TACAN to the tanker, set your displays to TACAN (or just use the BDHI to the right).

- Point in the general direction and close on tanker, check in on radio advise intend to refuel, get tankers altitude and match it.

- Lock up the Tanker with PAL and set A-A HUD mode. Switch to camera mode on VDI and as you get closer you will see the tankers aspect angle from you.

-- Now you will have closure rate on the Left, and distance on the Right of the HUD. Use these to judge your closure and join with the Tanker.

- Try to avoid flying directly behind it, as the turbulence will screw you up.

- As you are closing, set wing sweep to 40-50 degrees - trim as necessary (nose up), deploy probe. Slow to match speed based on the info on the HUD.

- Match speed, altitude and trim, trim, trim. Settle off it's left wing. Get Jester to unlock Target (clearer HUD).

- When you are happy (hands-off S/L pretty much), move right directly behind the drogue and say you are ready to refuel - and they will either clear contact or say return pre-contact (in which case move a little closer and try again).

- Now just ease her in closer using the refuel pod as reference - from here it is just smooth controls. Adjust your axis curves if you need to.

- Plug in and drive forward a little more to start refuel - stay there :)

 

 

I made you a quick refuel mission to practice with, good luck. Is great fun when you nail it - I refuel before every mission now!

 

 

The mission would've been nice, except that I specifically said that I am trying to refuel from the S3, so it doesn't really follow the topic. Thanks for the effort, though.

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The C-130 in the mission was for you to become more proficient at tanking - then change it to an S-3, but w/e...


Edited by VampireNZ

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...- you can't tell how far you are due to its small size.

 

Read my post above - lock the tanker and use the indications on the HUD in A-A mode.

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No, I know how the curves work. I just don't want to use them. From my experience, they don't really work if you want to do a proper dogfight becasue the turn rate slows your airframe down. Of course with curves this would be much easier. But you can't really switch between two modes, neither could the pilot.

 

 

I also don't measure how much my throttle moves, I'm saying what it "feels like". And it feels like with little input you get a lot of momentum. You don't get that in other planes. F-14 feels to me unwiedly and awkward. Especially in a jetwash.

 

 

You can't be on his left wing, because it contradicts the point you've made before "stay out of jetwash". If you even touch his aerodynamic trail, you will lose all control of the aircraft.

 

 

Also, S3 is extremely small, being on his left wing means you are literally in collsion range with the Aircraft. The only way to approach it seems to be climbing slowly on the left side, keeping his wing on the heading ruler of the HUD.

 

 

 

The one thing I do like is the lock-on mode that gives you the rate of closure. I'm gonna try this in a second, because this is driving me nuts.

 

 

Try my mission, you have to connect with the plane before it hits the shoreline, so you have a visual que as to how long you have until refueling is not possible.


Edited by Cunning_Fox
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i dont think i really move the throttle much more than a millimeter back and forth

tomcat is a rock steady flyer though

once you get it trimmed alright you can take your hand off the stick for the most part

 

other notes

-you shouldnt be in his jetwash at all, if you are in the wing vortices you're way too high

-kick the hud addiction, the best speed gauge is right there in your windscreen already. tanker getting bigger = too fast, tanker getting smaller = too slow. it's way more accurate and responsive than any hud output.

 

VengefulMajesticClingfish.webp

 

if you don't know how to counter pio then it just means you still don't know how to control the airplane

and you're not gonna get better if you already think you're the best

 

in other words stop blaming the airplane


Edited by probad
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if you don't know how to counter pio then it just means you still don't know how to control the airplane

and you're not gonna get better if you already think you're the best

in other words stop blaming the airplane

:beer:

 

-kick the hud addiction, the best speed gauge is right there in your windscreen already. tanker getting bigger = too fast, tanker getting smaller = too slow. it's way more accurate and responsive than any hud output.

 

Edit:Only suggesting using the HUD for speed when the tanker is outside easy visual reference (particularly important in VR) - obviously use the tanker for closer formation, is why I said get Jester to unlock target.


Edited by VampireNZ

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I tried S3 for the first time, load up to 16000 lbs twice, both on single connection. no issue here except S3 retracts the cute at 16000 lbs, maybe how I set up the mission.

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well the s-3 carries like 17000lbs of gas, you're literally sucking it dry

in fact you can kill ai s-3 tankers by reconnecting with them while they're on their descent and sucking all their remaining fuel out of them

 

edit: just read over the thread again

dear op

why in the blazes is your tanker set at 260kt groundspeed

this is a strange phenomenon i see around, you people seem to think slower is going to make things easier???


Edited by probad
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oh crap I'm not invisible ? I was seconds away from posting my nude collections.

 

that make sense, I tried to make a vid twice and S3 ruining it. lol

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what is real is "lazy lefthand syndrome"

 

even if you move your throttle only half a millimeter, if you just leave it there, you're going to keep accelerating

you can hold formation regardless if you move your throttle 1 millimeter or 40 millimeters, what matters is that you're applying the correct amount of counterinputs to equalize, which means you better keep that left hand awake and sharp.

id go as far to say that the vast majority of formation holding issues is rooted in a sleepy left hand rather than any controlstick hooplah

 

now what we really need is the iron maiden

an-f-14-refueling-over-late-afternoon-clouds.jpg

you wanna talk about short hoses


Edited by probad
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I don't think slower makes things easier. I am setting the tanker to my stall speed or just near that. I think this is the usual refuel speed is it not? I think I've read that in the manual that for these smaller planes the refueling speed is at around 250+ knots... I don't remember where I've heard that.

 

 

Even with +15 curves (my usual setting) the plane goes crazy near the cone. It flies up and over the S3. The acceleration is rampant. I'm looking at my X-55 at times and the notches on the throttle hardly ever go beyond three bars. it stay at 0-10% and even those movements are so small I hardly even touch the thing. Still it gains momentum really fast and goes wild.

 

 

 

I am aware that if I don't keep my throttle down I will keep accelerating, but that's not the point. I am aware that if I get into jetwash I am too high, it's impossible to connect in the wash as you lose the load on the wing.

 

 

 

I'm not saying I'm the best, I'm just trying to tell you I know the basics. :)

 

 

I'm gonna try again... and again... and again... Out of 20 or so tries so far only 5 were crashing into the plane, about 7 of them took me too long to line up, the rest I've just restarted out of frustration.

 

 

No connection so far.

 

I haven't felt this incompetent since NES TopGun - I could never land the F-14 on the carrier in that game.

 

 

Jesus Christ, I've flown WW1 bombers in Rise of Flight more responsive than this.

 

 

EDIT: I've just tried the quick mission refuel training. The speed of the tanker is at 700 knots or smoething like that, and the same thing happens. I've had contact for a millisecond, but it disconnected because the plane just can't keep the same speed - it want to go faster or slower or it wants to go up for every miniscule increase in throttle.


Edited by Cunning_Fox
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Keep practicing. That’s all I can say.

 

And setting the tanker near your stall speed is NOT the correct thing to do. You want to be at around 330 knots indicated if you can. Or possibly faster. The faster the tanker is going (within reason) the higher in the throttle bracket you’ll be and the faster the engines will respond to inputs. If you’re all the way back near idle because the tanker is going so slow then I’m not surprised the engines are sluggish to respond. Sweep your wings back to bomb mode to make the whole aircraft more stable and then away you go.

 

Record a video using shadowplay or something and let us see what you’re doing then we can give you some better advice. But there’s nothing wrong with the jet.

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