reported Super slow .50 caliber rounds

I'll have to eat my words then :D. I really thought guns seemed to be cooling faster. But then I don't fly the Sabre all that often and shoot its guns even less, so they probably were worse in my memory than in reality.

Maybe you just got better? :thumbup:

Great docs! Thanks iFox. I'm a librarian and love that digital archive stuff :D

@Nineline, what's the status of the main items in this thread?

There's:

1) Potential muzzle velocity changes

2) Gun cooling changes, apparently coded but not in game as of end of March.

I assume 1) is still in debate, but did 2) make it in?

@Nineline, what's the status of the main items in this thread?

 

There's:

 

1) Potential muzzle velocity changes

2) Gun cooling changes, apparently coded but not in game as of end of March.

 

 

I assume 1) is still in debate, but did 2) make it in?

Bump

Plus :

3) Gun overheating too soon ( as someone found it, the risk was only after 200 round bursts), leading to high dispersion

Yeah, we should look at it for sure I think. 200 was no worries of overheating, then overheating should come on after this, and I think we need to look at cooling as well

I'll kick that can again and see what I get.

Thanks. Any updates?

Question is this 200 rounds before overheat is this for a stationary gun or one with the same level as airflow over them as would be expected in an F86?

Question is this 200 rounds before overheat is this for a stationary gun or one with the same level as airflow over them as would be expected in an F86?

The document( TM-9-2190-AN-M3-Browning field maintenance) doesn’t specify it. I haven’t found other that would give the number that would account for the cooling expected specifically for F-86 airflow. It’s generic specification, so I think they measured it on the ground as it’d be hard to do in flight.

Regarding muzzle velocity, on pages 140-141 there is a table for different cartridges. It was usually >= 2900 feet/s , except for tracer M1 and head-light tracer which had only 2730 f/s.

Edit: should be >= 2900 feet/s instead of => 2900

Thank you!! :thumbup:

No, I kicked it harder this time, I know it is set to be fixed, just waiting on manpower to fix it. Thanks.

Thank you. Hopefully there will be no code changes needed (only values modification in .lua files).

I already modified my shell_table.lua(but of course can't play multiplayer with this modification) :

M20_50_aero_APIT: from 875 to 900 (basing on 2950 f/s in the document)

M2_50_aero_AP: from 823.5 to 865.5 (2840 f/s in the doc)

Basing on:

https://imgur.com/OGLPjeK

As for gun overheating too soon(and too slow cooling?). I'm not sure what the 3 values should be for "HeatEffectExt" in F-86.lua. Here is the page for someone who doesn't want to search the document:

https://imgur.com/ijZNTtF

Sounds like that 200 rounds number is for ground use? So cooling during flight may make it so we can't shoot it long enough to really even overheat the gun may be something worth thinking about.

Sounds like that 200 rounds number is for ground use? So cooling during flight may make it so we can't shoot it long enough to really even overheat the gun may be something worth thinking about.

I think you might be correct. Hard to know without the other pages, but I think this is refering to armorers testing the .50cal on the ground at the airbase, before a flight. It's the aircraft version of the Browning, but seems to involve a system test, to ensure it's in working order, reliable, before a real mission. Meaning, without the 400 knots of airspeed to cool it, yea, it could heat a round in the chamber something fierce. But in the air, I've got doubts that it's performance would degrade dramatically.

Sounds like that 200 rounds number is for ground use? So cooling during flight may make it so we can't shoot it long enough to really even overheat the gun may be something worth thinking about.

I don’t really know, but I think cooling during flight wasn’t that efficient/ rapid. On the other hand after 200 rounds fired there would be only 67 left, or 100 rounds maximum( if you include additional 33 in each container as posted by @iFoxRomeo on 30/3/2020).

Probably even ambient air temperature also could influence cooling. With -20 degrees Celsius it was more efficient than with +30 Celsius (But of course it’s not feasible to implement every factor in the sim)

So it’s hard to estimate accurately.

My guesstimate is that overheating effect should start after 230-250 rounds:)

There is a Gun Heater switch for a reason. The early jets, F-86As, had a quite complex system to ensure the guns were hot enough, later models were simplified. In the manual it instructs you when you should turn on the gun heater but does not advise you to turn it off when you are in the air and there is no mention of what to do if you suspect overheating.

There is also no provision to cool the gun compartment at all beyond natural cooling which should be telling. If overheating was a problem, they would have taken steps to prevent it like they did for over cooling.

The real question is what effect would we expect them to model? My experience is with the M2 and not the aircraft M3 version, however, I have never seen the exaggerated dispersion that is being modeled. The most common problems with overheating the M2 are jams as the tolerances change due to the overheating. You could also get a runaway gun or rnds to cook off. I suspect that the number 200 was specified because teh rnds came in 100 rnd belts and when in a defensive with the M2 on a sustained fire kit it would be common to link the first two belts together. After you fire 200 rds you would change the barrel anyway.

I have only seen serious heat damage to a M2 barrel once and it was a result of stupid behavior and thankfully I was not assigned the investigation but they linked several belts together and pulled the trigger. I have no idea what they were thinking.

Given all of that I think that overheating was a non issue. IF they decided to go ahead and model overheating as a penalty for someone unwisely firing all 267 rds in one go, I suppose a reasonable stand in for a real world study on the affect of overheating the M3 in Sabres would be to give each gun a random chance of jamming after the 200th rnd fired nonstop with the probability increasing with each additional rnd uninterruptedly fired afterwards. Each gun would need to be checked separately because IRL all six would not jam simultaneously.

“I suppose a reasonable stand in for a real world study on the affect of overheating the M3 in Sabres would be to give each gun a random chance of jamming after the 200th rnd fired nonstop with the probability increasing with each additional rnd uninterruptedly fired afterwards.”

Was the chance of jamming after long burst significant ?

Unless such jamming behavior is already implemented in DCS, it would require some coding.

The rest of fixes: muzzle velocity, increase max round count to 300, reduced overheating effect, could be done just in .lua files.

If in flight air cooling was efficient so that long bursts weren’t a problem then we can get rid of increased dispersion effects all together. It would be surely more realistic than what is now.

If in flight air cooling was efficient so that long bursts weren’t a problem then we can get rid of increased dispersion effects all together. It would be surely more realistic than what is now.

This would be my preferred solution, I am not convinced that even emptying all of the 300 possible rounds through the gun would have the effect it does now. Much like with the barrel heater if overheating was really this big of an issue:

Rendering the guns unusable would be noteworthy no? Wouldn't, if this was the case, there be some system to help cool the guns? Rather it seems more likely its a non issue and the above effect is overblown to near comical levels. Hec in my own post there is no noticeable increase in dispersion in the irl gun tapes.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4239871&postcount=107

This would be my preferred solution, I am not convinced that even emptying all of the 300 possible rounds through the gun would have the effect it does now. Much like with the barrel heater if overheating was really this big of an issue:

 

Rendering the guns unusable would be noteworthy no? Wouldn't, if this was the case, there be some system to help cool the guns? Rather it seems more likely its a non issue and the above effect is overblown to near comical levels. Hec in my own post there is no noticeable increase in dispersion in the irl gun tapes.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4239871&postcount=107

I think that'd be reasonable approximation.

Perhaps no one is replying because people who initially raised/reported these issues (or contributed to the thread) waited too long and lost interest. Maybe some of them modified .lua files by themselves. But the issue is that then you can't use multiplayer.

So it would be worth to have it finally fixed:

- Increase muzzle velocity (according to the table referenced on post #162)

- Remove gun dispersion due to overheating

- Increase max rounds to 300

If I'm not mistaken it only requires modification of .lua files. I think such change shouldn't require much testing too, as it doesn't impact other modules. If you'd decide to minimize overheating effect (instead of complete removal) then I guess would require some more testing.

Forgot to add that of course, increasing muzzle velocity will slightly decrease the lead/deflection needed to hit a target with significant angular velocity and range.

This would normally mean that F-86-F's A-4 gunfight lead calculation needs to be adjusted, but since it's already not working correctly:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=274923&page=3

then I guess it won't be touched. If anything with faster bullets it will be slightly better, since currently it doesn't give enough lead.

Of course I wouldn't mind if lead calculation be fixed too:) Especially if apparently it used to give correct lead, before a patch somewhere in 2016:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=162596

But I'm aware that would be much more complicated task than editing .lua files. Unless devs find and revert a commit/change that broke it:)

This would be my preferred solution, I am not convinced that even emptying all of the 300 possible rounds through the gun would have the effect it does now. Much like with the barrel heater if overheating was really this big of an issue:

 

Rendering the guns unusable would be noteworthy no? Wouldn't, if this was the case, there be some system to help cool the guns? Rather it seems more likely its a non issue and the above effect is overblown to near comical levels. Hec in my own post there is no noticeable increase in dispersion in the irl gun tapes.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4239871&postcount=107

Any updates? It's been a month since your last post here.

The funny thing is, I think I found a good source...that is the DCS Manual for the F-86 Sabre

Fox

Wow isn't that something! ;)

Any updates?

I wish I had seen this before buying the Sabre. It's possibly the most fun plane to fly that I have, but not being able to fight it effectively kinda really hurts its value.

I wish I had seen this before buying the Sabre. It's possibly the most fun plane to fly that I have, but not being able to fight it effectively kinda really hurts its value.

If you play single player, then for now you can change .lua files according to my post #163:

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/englis...65#post6290565

Also you may reduce gun overheating dispersion to minimum or even 0 and increase round count to 300. It's described in some previous posts.

But better backup original files as you won't be able to join multiplayer. Also DSC World updates may overwrite your changes.