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2.1 update


Coxy_99

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I can not comment on specific issues, now fixed or not, but actually ... after admittedly only a brief ride, I really like the way she handles now. It feels like she has ... "dimensions" now instead of just being a "point in space with a flight model".

 

One thing, though, something is odd with the mag. brake trim. I haven't played too much with it, yet, but one thing seems wrong: when trimming while the aircraft is banked results in a quite violent bank to the opposite side - usually followed by PIO or at least servere oversteering (i.e. burning hole in the ground).

 

To replicate: fly straight and level, bank right 30deg. or so to start a turn. Does not matter much if you deflect the cyclic (to keep the bank angle) or re-center it right before you press TRIM. Instead of the AP trying to hold the right hand side bank, it throws the helo into a left hand side bank.

 

Seems like a +- type of error here?

 

edit: ignore this posting - was a user error.


Edited by Flagrum
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The mag brake issue is typically due to FFB being turned on, happens sometimes after updates I've noticed.

?

 

Oh, ok. Of course I have FFB enabled - as I am using a FFB Stick (G940).

 

And after further investigation: not only the roll axis is affected, but pitch as well. I trim while nose is pitched down, the AP violently pulls the nose up. I trim when nose pitched up, AP drives the helo into the ground.

 

edit: ignore this posting - was a user error.

gaz roll trim.trk


Edited by Flagrum
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?

 

Oh, ok. Of course I have FFB enabled - as I am using a FFB Stick (G940).

 

And after further investigation: not only the roll axis is affected, but pitch as well. I trim while nose is pitched down, the AP violently pulls the nose up. I trim when nose pitched up, AP drives the helo into the ground.

 

Have you checked if any of the tings posted here (link) helps?

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Hrm, found the problem: the axes of a second (non ffb) stick interfered somehow. After cleaning up the controls setup, the trim now "works". At least it sets the FFB stick to the position where it maintains the helo's attitude at the moment when clicking trim (although that only seldomly really coincidences with the actual stick position at that moment). But whatever, at least that "forces are 180 deg. off"-bug isn't one - sorry for that!

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Looking forward to trying out the model changes this weekend!

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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It feels almost as good as 1.5, but controlling the Gazelle in the air is still a problem for me in 2.1. The controls are just ignored unless I pitch forward (or roll on either side) enough which results in rough, brusque movements and makes it near impossible to maintain the attitude. It's as if the control input was quantized too much, which I don't have at all in 1.5 (and the configuration is exactly the same).

 

So it's still not really usable in 2.1.

 

In 1.5 it's much nicer since its last update, still a bit weird on the ground where the ground effect seems to switch on and off too quickly with very little speed, and too abruptly.

System specs: Win7 x64 | CPU: i7-4770K | RAM: 16 GB | GPU: GTX 980 Ti 6 GB | Thrustmaster HOTAS | MFG rudder pedals | SATA3 SSD | TrackIR

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That's better, I found it really hard work so far, using Hotas Warthog, just a touch of stick and it was into a series of PIO's. All the blurb so far has been do not adjust your stick. Just about to do that and along comes this update, I was actually able to get it stable enough to fire and hit the target (moving landrover) Thank you

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It feels almost as good as 1.5, but controlling the Gazelle in the air is still a problem for me in 2.1. The controls are just ignored unless I pitch forward (or roll on either side) enough which results in rough, brusque movements and makes it near impossible to maintain the attitude. It's as if the control input was quantized too much, which I don't have at all in 1.5 (and the configuration is exactly the same).

 

So it's still not really usable in 2.1.

 

In 1.5 it's much nicer since its last update, still a bit weird on the ground where the ground effect seems to switch on and off too quickly with very little speed, and too abruptly.

 

I just tried 1.5 and had to check that there wasn't x,y saturation, for me 1.5 feels a little doughy and unresponsive compared to 2.1. Mind you I did the same check when I got the 2.1 update but 2.1 seems more responsive for me currently then 1.5 which is subjective and just an observation.

 

Also for me I've noticed that the Gazelle is more difficult to keep level in normal forward flight and I am also wondering if this is the granularity of input device and finding that happy attitude is between the step x,y increment/decrement size and that could simply be my cyclic device limitations so maybe a reason for me to upgrade cyclic. :P

 

Currently the Gazelle in 2.1.lattest form has now got to be by far the easiest helicopter to pick up, hover and set down even with AP off and trim off, for me the Huey used to be the easiest. :cry:

 

Still more testing,.. :pilotfly:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Also for me I've noticed that the Gazelle is more difficult to keep level in normal forward flight and I am also wondering if this is the granularity of input device and finding that happy attitude is between the step x,y increment/decrement size and that could simply be my cyclic device limitations so maybe a reason for me to upgrade cyclic. :P

 

That's the problem I have in 2.1, but not only for pitch, for the cyclic in any direction. I tried to adjust the curve non-linearity but in any case it seems that when I move the cyclic control to a point, it does not respond, and any tiny increment beyond that point moves the cyclic too much. So for example the Gazelle's attitude will pitch forward without stabilizing, so I have to pull back and I can only fly with a kind of oscillating attitude.

 

Perhaps it's just the settings, next time I'll try with erasing them entirely, but I compared and they're exactly the same as 1.5, which does not have this problem.

 

Or perhaps it's linked to the low framerate and microfreezes we get in 2.1 when it loads the scenery when moving, no idea. I can try to reduce the graphics quality and try again.

 

I didn't notice a difference in responsiveness, but that could also be subjective :)

System specs: Win7 x64 | CPU: i7-4770K | RAM: 16 GB | GPU: GTX 980 Ti 6 GB | Thrustmaster HOTAS | MFG rudder pedals | SATA3 SSD | TrackIR

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That's the problem I have in 2.1, but not only for pitch, for the cyclic in any direction. I tried to adjust the curve non-linearity but in any case it seems that when I move the cyclic control to a point, it does not respond, and any tiny increment beyond that point moves the cyclic too much. So for example the Gazelle's attitude will pitch forward without stabilizing, so I have to pull back and I can only fly with a kind of oscillating attitude.

 

It seems the minimum resolution I can get is steps about the thickness of the lines in the control indicator. So in forward flight you can nudge the nose cyclic forward or aft a little but nothing seems to happen so you give it a bit more and it's too much and attitude changes too much in the correction direction. I don't really get that with roll but yes with pitch I do. It's nothing I notice in close to the ground or anything only in level flight.

 

Perhaps it's just the settings, next time I'll try with erasing them entirely, but I compared and they're exactly the same as 1.5, which does not have this problem.

 

Maybe what do you have for cyclic??

 

Or perhaps it's linked to the low framerate and microfreezes we get in 2.1 when it loads the scenery when moving, no idea. I can try to reduce the graphics quality and try again.

 

I didn't notice a difference in responsiveness, but that could also be subjective :)

 

Maybe it's subjective, sure but to me DCS 1.5 Gazelle seems to be a different feel different to DCS 2.1 Gazelle in VR.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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It seems the minimum resolution I can get is steps about the thickness of the lines in the control indicator. So in forward flight you can nudge the nose cyclic forward or aft a little but nothing seems to happen so you give it a bit more and it's too much and attitude changes too much in the correction direction. I don't really get that with roll but yes with pitch I do. It's nothing I notice in close to the ground or anything only in level flight.

That's right, when hovering or taxiing in ground effect it seems fine. For ex. I can land it and give little corrections without any trouble - apart from the helicopter trying to kill me, that is :D

 

The way it gets in/out of ground effect feels abrupt and at quite a low speed to me, but I haven't flown a Gazelle for real, only a lighter, smaller R22 and not for long. Perhaps it's correct and I'm wrong, but it's different from other experiences, real or sim.

 

Maybe what do you have for cyclic??

Thrustmaster joystick, not really appropriate I know. Those helicopter controllers must be fun and more precise, but they're too expensive and take too much space for my use. The DCS tuning shows it's smooth and precise enough, the only problem is the strong spring that I don't want to remove. What are you using?

System specs: Win7 x64 | CPU: i7-4770K | RAM: 16 GB | GPU: GTX 980 Ti 6 GB | Thrustmaster HOTAS | MFG rudder pedals | SATA3 SSD | TrackIR

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That's right, when hovering or taxiing in ground effect it seems fine. For ex. I can land it and give little corrections without any trouble - apart from the helicopter trying to kill me, that is :D

 

The way it gets in/out of ground effect feels abrupt and at quite a low speed to me, but I haven't flown a Gazelle for real, only a lighter, smaller R22 and not for long. Perhaps it's correct and I'm wrong, but it's different from other experiences, real or sim.

 

Yes it was similar in R44, in fact I spent many hours in the Gazelle thinking small 2000Kg maybe similar feel to R44 1000Kg and well up in an R44 and set down and pick up and hover and generally IGE felt solid it was a walk in the park compared to old FM. I think the new FM is pretty good but having a "collective input" with finer input control really helps here I think. I have no curves for cyclic and collective but I do have curves for torque pedals to give more authority. :thumbup:

 

Oh BTW she will stop trying to kill you when she feels confident and little input is more control especially in Gazelle. :P

 

 

Thrustmaster joystick, not really appropriate I know. Those helicopter controllers must be fun and more precise, but they're too expensive and take too much space for my use. The DCS tuning shows it's smooth and precise enough, the only problem is the strong spring that I don't want to remove. What are you using?

 

 

Well I have combat pro rudder umm torque pedals and a Modified 3D Pro joystick which kinda feels like an R44 cyclic and collective.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Was using the Force Trim on my FFB Sidewinder Stick and the coolie Hat Fine Trim on my Warthog Throttle.

That seem's to increase Trouble with the FFB Trim, nose down attitude is nearly not working and when you trim the slightest Backwards the Heli makes suddenly heavy Pitch up.

With Fine Trim and Force Trim on the Sidewinder FFB its working now as intended.

Once you have tasted Flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your Eyes turned Skyward.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

9./JG27

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Was using the Force Trim on my FFB Sidewinder Stick and the coolie Hat Fine Trim on my Warthog Throttle.

That seem's to increase Trouble with the FFB Trim, nose down attitude is nearly not working and when you trim the slightest Backwards the Heli makes suddenly heavy Pitch up.

With Fine Trim and Force Trim on the Sidewinder FFB its working now as intended.

 

Not sure as I don't use FFB and Trim and AP, I would describe it as a heavy pitch up or pitch down certainly for the small cyclic correction input used it's maybe a more than the expected response and I am still trying to find out why?

 

I get both pitch up and pitch down with about the same aggressiveness to input and results in a continuous need to correct the previous input, which could of course be pilot induced oscillation.

 

Although I don't think it is, it just seems like the cyclic input step size is coarser over the center of control meaning you over correct by default. For instance and I am only starting to investigate this, the Mi8 which has no curves in cyclic x,y same as the Gazelle has a much smother response to movement of the cyclic and hence the cursor in the display.

 

In Gazelle the step size over the centre region seems to be the thickness of the red lines on the input indicator in VR. Whereas in the Mi8 it seems to be many more smaller divisions I.E. a smother more analogue change with cyclic input verses movement of the cursor with resultant finer control.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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In Gazelle the step size over the centre region seems to be the thickness of the red lines on the input indicator in VR. Whereas in the Mi8 it seems to be many more smaller divisions I.E. a smother more analogue change with cyclic input verses movement of the cursor with resultant finer control.

 

Well that was interesting I took the Mi8 out last night and it too has the same over reacting effect seemingly only in pitch axis and just now took the Huey out same thing. So this might be a controller issue or something. Although I replaced the gimbal and controller PCB same result.

 

Just to compound that there have been Windows updates DCS updates since.

 

Just can't seem to find that sweet spot for straight and level flight easily which seems odd as before* it was fairly straight forward to get into hands free level flight in any of the Helis. However same deal when low in close to the ground where I fly mostly seems well good. :D

 

I also see some other threads here indicating some people are experiencing what seems to be similar issues with x,y inputs.

 

* I first noticed this was possibly in 2.1 update 5 from mid-ish last month.

 

Oh and yes small arms fire, I think I got hydraulic system damage from small arms fire but seems sams work just as well as the used too. :P

 

I do apologise in advance for hijacking this thread.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Actually the FM seems to take ground effect into account, at last.

 

I compared again the UH-1H, the Mi-8 and the SA-342 in the latest DCS 1.5.7, and the Gazelle was the only one not to show any ground effect. In the latest 2.1.1, it's obviously present, the difference is unmistakable. That's nice!

 

The manual is still quite poor.

 

I suppose we'll get there one day :p

System specs: Win7 x64 | CPU: i7-4770K | RAM: 16 GB | GPU: GTX 980 Ti 6 GB | Thrustmaster HOTAS | MFG rudder pedals | SATA3 SSD | TrackIR

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Yeah ground effect is definitly there. It threw my rooftop landings off yesterday. And even the sound bug is gone as far as I can tell. Now only the Z-Fighting when the lights are on is bothering me.

 

Finally I can fly my Gazelle again. :)

Modules: Well... all of 'em

 

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Actually the FM seems to take ground effect into account,..

 

Yes the Gazelle feels great in IGE and OGE waiting for more goodies in the FM. :thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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So seems like the opinions are very divided.

 

Except from the IGE (and sometimes I'm wondering if I had not imagined it), it's still completely uncontrollable to me in a level flight, and the trim doesn't work as before:

- trim switch is ignored

- the slightest touch on trim makes a very large difference, it seems like all-or-nothing actually

- nose up and down are reversed

 

Though this depends on whether I use cold or hot start, with hot start it's slightly more controllable. I don't think I missed anything in the startup procedure, but the manual is not yet written for that part so...

 

All that is fine in 1.5.7.

 

Is there something very obvious that could explain the difference?

System specs: Win7 x64 | CPU: i7-4770K | RAM: 16 GB | GPU: GTX 980 Ti 6 GB | Thrustmaster HOTAS | MFG rudder pedals | SATA3 SSD | TrackIR

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Trim an magnetic brake worke fine here (2.1 and 1.5), at least for nose up/down. What I don´t get to work in a matter I would expect to act is "lateral" trim (yaw): trim indicator on control panel moves, helicopter reacts first but then returns back to original attitude (control panel indicator still shows left/right trim).

 

Level flight is fine (using magnetic brake plus trim), IGE/OGE is present not only in my imagination.

 

I believe that the FM is going in the right direction (just guts feeling, no RL experience)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]my rig specs: i7-4790K CPU 4.50GHz, 32GB RAM, 64bit WIN10, NVidia GeForce GTX 980 Ti, SSD+

 

A10C, UH-1H, M2C, F5E, Gazelle, KA 50, F18C, DCS 2.5x OB

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