F/A-18C capability in EA

I dont think I agree with that, everything has a learning curve, most of us are not real military pilots, and we can all respawn. I am up for a challenge and something that takes time to get good at, and always hope that even if I get good at it, its still a challenge.

 

Most guys are here because DCS is a challenge, and most try to push themselves. Sure some have a tough time with the harder aspects of the sim, but most of us came here for that I think.

Guess I'm more talking about the paid content side and balancing it out. I do agree some like the challenge and don't mind having to replay the missions.

Perhaps you need a campaign rating system down the track? This campaign is Rated R for (Ridiculously Hard):D

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After listening to the latest chapter of Viper Pilot (fantastic book btw) I think the term SEAD is a little bit dated... the old ARMs (AGM-45 Shrike and AGM-78 Standard ARM) were more for actual SEAD, but just SEAD is kind of a waste since they can just reactivate and be used later on, unless the SAM is then bombed. The newer ARMs (AGM-88D and E) are more of combined SEAD/DEAD weapons with their bigger warheads and multiple ways to track even if the enemy were to shut down their radar.

The AGM-88D that we are getting has GPS, so even if they shut down it should still destroy the SAM.

The AGM-88D that we are getting has GPS, so even if they shut down it should still destroy the SAM.

Curious, where did you get that idea? It clearly states we get the AGM-88C.

AGM-88C HARM

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3285514&postcount=13

Curious, where did you get that idea? It clearly states we get the AGM-88C.

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3285514&postcount=13

From my head... I guess it was wrong. :helpsmilie:

After reading this I am curious if it will have GPS? I am thinking not. So these will be defeat-able by shutting down SAM sites?

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-88.html

The latest upgrade effort for HARM is known as Block VI, an international collaboration by the U.S. (Raytheon), Germany (BGT), and Italy (Alenia). The main improvement of HARM Block VI is the incorporation of a GPS navigation system. This greatly increases accuracy when radar lock is lost after emitter switch-off, because the GPS guidance keeps the missile within a narrow box towards the last known emitter position. This is especially desirable in wars, where enemy radar installations are deliberately placed near sensitive civilian areas, like schools or hospitals. This often prevented the use of earlier HARM missiles in the Kosovo campaign, because a deviation after radar loss could lead to unacceptable collateral damage. Using GPS guidance as a primary means of homing on the target, Block VI HARMs could even be used as general purpose high-speed precision ground attack missiles. AGM-88Cs upgraded to Block VI standard were to be known as AGM-88D in U.S. service. Germany and Italy, which mainly have older AGM-88Bs in stock, will refer to their upgraded missiles as AGM-88B Block IIIB. The AGM-88D was in the EMD phase in 2002, and IOC at that time was planned for 2003. However, as of 2005, no AGM-88Ds were listed in the Navy's inventory, and it therefore appears that either the procurement of Block VI upgrade kits has been cancelled or the upgraded missiles are still referred to as AGM-88B/C.

Regarding HARM, Fri13 is right but folks are missing the point of the HARM. It exists in "SEAD" as the deterrent, not the executor, despite it working very well against radars. Even though many misses are recorded, isn't the point and does not devalue it. The simple fact is that whilst there is a HARM equipped plane up there, SAM operators don't radiate or radiate for extremely short periods in concert with a larger Air Defence networks. Radiating for more than half a minute will get you killed as a SAM operator, so anyone that lives the tale will explain how to defeat HARM.

Yes, DCS is used as a duckshoot by many, I've seen it over the years. And no, you are unlikely to see anything as duckshooty as the Gulf Wars. "Fixed" SAM sites are an old fashioned thing, reserved for long range theaters now, way back from enemy lines. Even the larger ones are broken down and regularly moved. Your threats are manpads and mobile SAMs, forcing you up into medium altitude and out of easy eyesight and into the realm of the "pop up SAM".

So what's being said about SEAD, isn't nearly as much about the actual weapon release and hitting a radar dish, it's the fact that SAM operators (the ones still alive to talk about it) operate under a different mentality, knowing that HARM is there. They shut down, rig their sets, move often, radiate for very short bursts, situate decoy emitters based on old Mig parts, perform sneaky LOAL attacks, fire at retreating packages and use their eyeballs and intelligence. That cut's down their effectiveness, of course, and thus "Suppression" without firing. Hence the comments about a "waste of ordnance", can be viewed as a relevant comment.

Is a Suppressed SAM no longer dangerous? Well the surviving ejectees have talked about their experiences of being shot down. HARM isn't everything, but it changes SAM battery behaviour from what you may see in DCS World.

So, back to the sim, ask more from your mission writers, implement shut downs on radiation and random behaviour and keep players away from the duck shoot mentality, play with a PvP mentality. Let's hope that DCSW can come up with a full SAM simulator and really keep people on their toes, once we have the F-18C and HARM.

^ Indeed, HARM is not some sort of panacea to dealing with GBAD/IADS threats but nobody is saying that in the first place. Rather, it is one tool among many.

However, getting up close and personal with bombs, Mavericks, rockets and cannon is not the default alternative to HARM (!?).

I think you'll find modern western doctrine calls for a much more holistic approach to SEAD/DEAD that includes the use of ship/sub/air launched cruise missiles, ISR support, extensive ELINT gathering and EW/EA attack, decoys to elicit responses from genuine SAM sites, JASSM/JSOW and - yes - HARM shooters. For example (

While we may never be able to replicate all of the above in DCS, the addition of HARM, L16, JSOW, SLAM/SLAM-ER and TALD to the Hornet (in due course) will certainly help.

So while the AI of GBAD systems in DCS is extremely basic, so is the current arsenal of available SEAD technologies and techniques. I for one am very glad to see that this is slowly changing and think it's great that we have people in the community putting effort into scripting etc. that can make things that bit more realistic on the GBAD side too.

After reading this I am curious if it will have GPS? I am thinking not. So these will be defeat-able by shutting down SAM sites?

No GPS, but I think it has some short-term memory? Judging for Pikey's answer here, interesting read, it's from earlier in this thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3459678&postcount=22

I'm really not trying to sound insulting here so please dont take it that way.

 

Talking like this your going to lose your credibility very quickly. If anyone needs a moving map, ground radar and all of that stuff to do their jobs effectively than boy howdy the guys in 91 would have all gotten shot to hell by Iraqi SAMs and never hit a damn thing.

Listen pilots who transitioned from aircrafts without moving map, to ones that had it. Almost everyone would say it dramatically improve their situational awareness and combat capabilities as well basic navigation.

What you are now saying is that all those technologies are wasted space and dead weight....

Having all the fancy technologies since 70's has big increase to efficiency to perform different tasks when you can use them. They are there to help, improve your capabilities, but you need to know how to fly and navigate without them.

You can only perform so well with compass, clock, paper map and binoculars with basic avionics for speed and altitude.

Comparing what a all digital technologies allows you to do. Even a radio to ground troops, the communication possibilities between all troops in ground makes everything more efficient.

Your arguing that the HARM, a technologically advanced weapon is useless and we should all go weaseling with rockets, bombs and cannons of all things.

No. I am saying that HARM ain't a silver bullet to destroy enemy air defence.

Most anti air troops can operate without radar. How the heck you think to be able shoot at them with anti radiation missile?

What benefit is it too you when suddenly your RWR screams a lock below or at your six and SARH missile impacts to you just few seconds after that? Because you thought that 15 seconds radar emission 40km front of you minute earlier was the SAM location?

HARM has capability to detect radio communications and got there, why radio silence is critical among ground troops. Every radio is a beacon in a electronic reconnaissance. Why modern militaries still are there pulling kilometers of cables from command centers to every location. Messengers are moving across battlefield with critical informations with motorbikes, snowmobiles, ATV, and even running. Information that ain't transmitted over radio or possibly compromised cables, even how encrypted with military grade codes changed every few hour etc.

The same goes other way around too. Your aircraft radar, ECM, radio and datalink are beacons to SAM. Silently locked to you and launched. So you need to be electrically blind yourself too, yet you are leaving thermal trails, sounds and visual all over the place who ever just looks up to sky.

Why you go silent, low, fast and you just bomb the areas that was last time sighted with enemy, if you can't reach them with artillery or bomb from heavens etc.

When you are CAS and enemy anti air appears, you need to be able use any weapon to defend yourself or destroy it if you can't flee from area, leaving ground units without support.

All of which will get you a ride in a parachute in one of my missions. While In the same post your saying that you need a moving map, a2g radar and all of the new toys to be able to know where your at in the world come on now.

You are now purposely trying to insult....

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I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

You wrote this, "Even today SEAD would be needed to be done with old fashion way as every ARM is useless as there ain't radiation to target for or that ain't gonna kill you in few seconds after you detect it."

 

I'm not sure what other way to take that.

So how are you going to use your HARM against example Tunguska or Strela-10m

How about a six IGLAS? Or how about a Crotale? How about a RBS-70?

How about a ZSU-23-2 with digital sights?

How about BUK-M1 correspondingly launched? A CV9040 or BMP-3M?

Answer is same as using your RWR against AIM-9/R-73...

Of course you can always try to jettison the HARM on those to get them killed...

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I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

I don't think we are talking about the same uses of the HARM... I know full well what HARM can attack and what it can not. HARM was designed to deal with radar guided SAM sites.. it was easily spoofed until it was upgraded with systems to mark the radars position even when switched on and off.. Your perfectly within your rights to go wild weaseling against manpads, tunguska etc with mavericks etc.. However nobody is arguing that with you about that. Anyone that says the HARM is for that doesn't know what HARM is for..

Alternatively, I was not attempting to be insulting, however if it came across that way I do apologize sincerely. Text can be that way while trying to make a point.

Regards.

This thread has gone nonsense...

DCS World environment is mostly "cold war era", or early 90'.

The Hornet we are supposed to get is the latest variant, and people are still requesting the very last toys...

There is a time frame conflict here !

But if you want to do modern era DEAD, the most rational way with a Lot 20 Hornet isn't to use guns/ rockets/ bombs, it's to use AGM-88 to deter SAM to emit + JSOW to strike from stand off range.

Finally, in case of bad surprise, the "Self Protect" mode isn't that bad to cover your escape (off bore-sight shooting).

As = If

 

So how are you going to use your HARM against example Tunguska or Strela-10m

How about a six IGLAS? Or how about a Crotale? How about a RBS-70?

How about a ZSU-23-2 with digital sights?

How about BUK-M1 correspondingly launched? A CV9040 or BMP-3M?

These are short range weapon systems. AGM-88 provide deterrence to be able to operate at medium/ high altitude.

And weapon systems shutting off their radar have reduced effectiveness.

So yes, AGM-88 will be useful.

[Edit ortho]

These are short range weapon systems. AGM-88 provide deterrence to be able to operate at medium/ high altitude.

And weapon systems shutting off there radar have reduced effectiveness.

 

So yes, AGM-88 will be useful.

Exactly , example I can think of is a S-6 site in the middle of a huge flat area, only way right now to kill one without trying to dodge 6 missles is the 25t , it will be an incredible useful weapon just like the sidearm is when used correctly. People aren't gonna be trying to shoot at Tunguska's with it at least I hope not .

See... This discussion right here is why people fly the way they do in DCS.

 

There's no consequences, so yeah you can fly your happy rear end over a sam site and drop bombs on it and cannon and all of that unrealistic nonsense. In the real world the guys life and multi million dollar aircraft are on the line. Which is why the HARM was invented to stop the wild weasel nonsense of the 60's and early 70's because people where getting killed doing it. Yeah, ok sure you CAN drop ordinance on SAM sites or loft bomb GBU's at them. But that's just not realistic.

If you happen across it, the book Viper Pilot is a good read. It is written by an F-16 wild weasel pilot who fought in the gulf war, and in Iraq after September 11th. And from my reading of the book they normally used HARMs as suppression (force them to shut off), and did the actual killing of the Sams by marking their location and running in with cluster bombs.

Considering the DCS F/A-18C weapons and variant are from the early 2000's I figure his tactics would be valid.

This thread has gone nonsense...

 

DCS World environment is mostly "cold war era", or early 90'.

 

The Hornet we are supposed to get is the latest variant, and people are still requesting the very last toys...

There is a time frame conflict here !

 

 

id simply like to point out this is merely because There is only so much Public source data available. You cant expect ED to represent all of the latest and greatest ADS available today, without larger compromises to simulation aspect. However the most potent ones available in DCS are still at least in still in active duty service, even if no longer the most modern systems available right now. Certainly as years go by and if more information becomes available in the more distant future they may represent newer ADS systems, as well as more modern weaponry for planes or even more technologically modern planes.

DCS technically is a simulator that includes planes from various time frames, but its perfectly fair to call it a "modern combat" simulator. FIrst Conflict included since FC3 is the Caucasus map based on the 2008 Russo- Georgian war time frame

next map since has been a modern Centruy Nevada NTTR, and next soon to be released map will be a modern Persian gulf map. Scenario wise DCs is catering to relatively recent ( 21st century) scenarios than we do cold war or early 1990s specific. The only other map that isnt modern era, IS the Normany map which is ww2 era ( circa 1944). Its either 21st centruy or ww2 in terms of map period.

We just happen to have more cold war era planes because there is an interest in them, as well as less chances of classified data impeding researchers. The addition of simpler cold war era vehicles has been largely 3rd parties ( first Modules), and been a good starting place for them. There are also limitations of aircraft simply becuase the A/G radar code technology that ED is developing for the Horne isnt ready for 3rd parties yet. Which has limited what aircraft types 3rd parties had wanted to do. ( IE razbam putting F-15E and av8B + plans plans fpr temporary hold )

I put this on the last page, this is how HARM's are used and should be used in a campaign. Bait the sams to react to a threat. If they don't turn on, well? Them or something of theirs is going to go boom.

(DCS NTTR A-10C Red Flag Campaign)

Little Quote out of mission 4

"A B-52 out of Barksdale will come in and launch some conventional air-launched cruise missiles (ALCM) at the SA-10 site at the southern airfield. Once that threat is neutralized, the Eagles will sweep west and then CAP over Quartzite and cover the strikers as they egress to the east."

"HARM shooters will take out the SA-11 at the northern airfield and also target the tactical SA-15s that are known to provide point defense at the two sites." end quote.

The reason the A-10 was built so tough with redundancy systems was so it could get in close and personal with the SA-13's, Igla's and 23mm rounds, while all that other stuff was going on. Yes they got shot down even in the Gulf War by SA-13's, Igla's.

You want to build a real sneaky mission like it would be IRL? Hide the crap out these units Igla's, SA-13's, Tunguska's and turn off any radar by switching off the AI, set a trigger to turn them on when well in range only, spawn in Igla's when the Tunguska activates on different angles or behind you in a tree line etc. Have other triggers out further to turn them off again and if you want to get real tricky, have them then move location etc.

Trying to find some time myself to build some real hard complete missions.

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You want to build a real sneaky mission like it would be IRL? Hide the crap out these units Igla's, SA-13's, Tunguska's and turn off any radar by switching off the AI, set a trigger to turn them on when well in range only, spawn in Igla's when the Tunguska activates on different angles or behind you in a tree line etc. Have other triggers out further to turn them off again and if you want to get real tricky, have them then move location etc.

 

Trying to find some time myself to build some real hard complete missions.

 

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Balls of steel, those hog drivers. Scary stuff, man, I shudder just thinking about it.