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Can't takeoff/land straight because no visual cues...


Nealius

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wrong. dont even look at slip gauges keep your eyes outside the cockpit. Only gauges you should be looking at are the engine gauges.

 

Well, personally I think that the right answer is the one that will get you taking off and landing consistently in a straight line without damaging your aircraft. Once that is achieved your own technique can be modified and improved both through gaining experience and through trial and error as you see fit.

 

As this thread and so many others on this Spitfire forum show, there are quite a few different approaches to achieving this, none of which are wrong, because they all work OK for the author. So read them all and then you just need to go with what works for you Nealius. Thankfully there is no one sat in the backseat appraising you, so if it looks good from the outside (multiplayer) its OK whatever way you do it.


Edited by crowebar

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Told Ya Crowebar :music_whistling:

 

I think as you get better you use the Turn Indicator less as time and skill increase. You eventually get a feel for what the Spit is going to do.

 

I still glance down at the TI occasionally though, I have no physical feedback like a real pilot would have so cannot judge what the aircraft is planning to do next. This is where VR or even better a motion sim would add a new level of immersion.

 

I found the TI advice many moons back when struggling with the Dora & it gave me a step change improvement and encouraged me to practice more and not just bin the whole thing

 

By the by I admire your measured approach, reasoned advice and willingness to take account of other opinions.

 

It is after all just a game

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I can easily see whether I am lined up properly in the spitfire on takeoff.

 

How do you see? The following pictures are the scenario I always find myself in:

 

1) To me it looks like I have equal amounts of runway on either side. The "creases" in the runway all seem to be heading towards a vanishing point on my nose. The edges of the runway appear to be lined up with the same bolts on either side of the canopy frame.

 

 

2) Look out the side, and I see the center line extending straight ahead of me, seemingly in-line with the aircraft.

 

3) (not pictured) I look out the back, and see the center line extending straight behind me, seemingly in-line with my aircraft.

 

 

4) In external view, I am decidedly NOT lined up properly. Yet my visual cues inside the cockpit are telling me that I am.

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How do you see? The following pictures are the scenario I always find myself in:

1) To me it looks like I have equal amounts of runway on either side. The "creases" in the runway all seem to be heading towards a vanishing point on my nose. The edges of the runway appear to be lined up with the same bolts on either side of the canopy frame.

2) Look out the side, and I see the center line extending straight ahead of me, seemingly in-line with the aircraft.

3) (not pictured) I look out the back, and see the center line extending straight behind me, seemingly in-line with my aircraft.

4) In external view, I am decidedly NOT lined up properly. Yet my visual cues inside the cockpit are telling me that I am.

 

 

A Couple of things spring to mind. Firstly, I'd say you are as well lined up as you need to be in all those images. Sure there might be some disparity between them, but your nose is going in the general direction of the RWY... you're certainly lined up well enough for me.

I always correct my nose one the machine gets some ground speed up. 5 degrees off centre isn't a big deal, and you can swing the nose back onto a more precise heading after the aircraft starts to roll.

 

 

Here's my view on takeoff from about 1:25 in the video below. This isn't to promote my channel,. so I hope you can forgive me for posting this here.

 

 

In all likelihood I am not perfectly lined up either. But basically there is brown stuff on the right, and brown stuff on the left. You'll see my nose swings left-to-right a few times during the T/O roll, but (and fortunately you can see the rudder pedals in this video) I am kicking the pedals like a tap-dance to correct all the time. At 1:49 I'm probalby about 5 degrees off centre, and you can see the grass approaching. So you can see me kicking in 3 or 4 pumps of right rudder to bring is back to the right.

 

 

All of this is being judged visually, based on the external cues.

I'm not checking any instruments at all throughout the process.

I judge my direction using:

1. The amount of brown stuff showing either side of me

2. The clouds

3. The hangars and other objects

 

OK, it's not a perfect takeoff, and on a much narrower strip I might have gone too far left, but in the end I depart the RWY almost in the middle, which is good enough for Jazz . . and this is supposed to be the 1940s, so Jazz is right on!

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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Told Ya Crowebar :music_whistling:
lol

 

 

I think as you get better you use the Turn Indicator less as time and skill increase. You eventually get a feel for what the Spit is going to do.
:thumbup: Also interesting that looking down at the TI while sat in the normal pilot position is classed as an absolute no no, while going to an external chase view to help keep it straight is ok??? :cry:

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A little confused on the amplitude of the brakes, since in DCS it's only a momentary button press. I can't seem to map it to an axis (all my axes are taken anyway).

 

You can map Spifire brakes in an axis, e.g. in VKB MCG or VPC T50 brake lever on grip, using the command "Wheel brakes" in axes option.


Edited by Sokol1_br
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I see on the saitek X52 the possibility of configuring the joystick to activate a rudder function at the bottom of the stick.On the other hand you report that you have a "saitek pro rudder pedals"

if the rudder function is activated at the same time as you use the "pro rudder pedals" there may be a conflict.

you should also check, in the DCS configuration menu for joysticks, that you do not have two devices that operate the same key.

As mentioned above you can configure a key or an axis for the brakes of the spit.The saitek X52 has enough buttons for that.And anyway, the brakes as they are represented, in the game, are at all or nothing.So a button will go very well.Have just to remember when you use them ,rudder must be lifter depressed, right or left, completely.If your rudder is halfway on one side or the other , the brake is applied on both wheels. To turn effectively, it is necessary to brake with a single wheel on the side where one wants to turn. All that seems obvious and a little simplistic, but one is easily mistaken especially with the spit. Finally, apply the brakes in small strokes.


Edited by cromhunt
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I have the brakes mapped to button 5 on my stick, and using them to taxi from point A to point B I have had no problems with--I find the Spit much easier to taxi than the Mustang--but I still haven't gotten the hang of getting the tail wheel to straighten out after I make a turn.

 

My landings have been getting better, I need to get used to flare height and learn to tap-dance a little more:

 

cZcJayDqLU4

 

The end of my landing rollout, when I lose rudder authority, is where things tend to get dicey.


Edited by Nealius
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I have the brakes mapped to button 5 on my stick, and using them to taxi from point A to point B I have had no problems with--I find the Spit much easier to taxi than the Mustang--but I still haven't gotten the hang of getting the tail wheel to straighten out after I make a turn.

 

My landings have been getting better, I need to get used to flare height and learn to tap-dance a little more:

 

cZcJayDqLU4

 

The end of my landing rollout, when I lose rudder authority, is where things tend to get dicey.

I think that's a pretty good landing mate. I understand your concerns, maybe a little more zoom out and a steeper glide slope can help with that, but taildraggers with a long nose are like that IRL and nothing can be done but the standard curved approach.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Nealius, you've got to be kidding. That's one of the best landings we've seen posted on these forums, especially given the fact that for some reason you make it more difficult for yourself by using low&straight (so called "can't see sh..t") approach, while most of use use steeper and curved ones.

 

Too much movement? What movement? I can see awesome directional control after touchdown, and if there was any rollout drama at the unrecorded end of the clip, it has too be only too long brake tap related, nothing that practice can't fix.


Edited by Art-J

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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Agree with Art-J on this one. Beautiful flare and touchdown and a rollout that I'd be content with.

 

Many people here with many more hours are doing a great deal less tidy landings than that according to youtube...

 

I think some of your issues are more perceived than actual; I suspect you come from a more modern, procedural idiom of flight where all risks are managed out by checklist and intelligent aircraft design. You hit this speed at this power setting, with that rate of descent = safe.

 

The warbirds are for more instinctive; they are so because in order to meet desired performance and combat capabilties they compromised or sacrificed certain parameters more so than an equivalent a/c designed today thanks to the limit of technology at the time - for example, the taildown view (or lack thereof!) with the long nose would be an anathema for a GA design today.

 

In still air I'm sure there is a combination of power, speed and rate of descent that would bring the spit down right every time. However, because we rarely operate in still air, the altimeter does not necessarily read your height above the a/f you're landing at, no velocity vector, no AoA indicator and no weight calculator means that there's a lot you have to figure out for yourself by "just flying the plane" until you instinctively know what looks "right" for your current attitude, speed and altitude. That's what makes these warbirds so rewarding! And it looks to me like you're doing just fine.


Edited by DD_Fenrir
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I should have posted all my fail videos. That was one of my first where I didn't scrape a wing and managed to stay controlled on rollout. Now I'm more consistent. Recently my tail wheel has been impacting first, instead of a nice 3-point touchdown. I can't seem to find the right AoA.

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I should have posted all my fail videos. That was one of my first where I didn't scrape a wing and managed to stay controlled on rollout. Now I'm more consistent. Recently my tail wheel has been impacting first, instead of a nice 3-point touchdown. I can't seem to find the right AoA.
That means you got the three pointer quite right and now are being a bit overzealous about flaring so in the end you pull a bit farther than needed and tail wheel goes first. That's quite normal while learning, even more in simulation where we don't fly by the seat of the pants, but that means you're doing well and later on you'll get the sweet spot and will have a good three pointer position, don't worry too much about it.

 

Then the next step would be the two pointer, but that's a different kettle of fish. If you'd allow me the advice, don't rush into two pointers until you feel utterly comfortable and confident about three pointers. In the end being able to land in a correct three pointer is all you need.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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. Recently my tail wheel has been impacting first, instead of a nice 3-point touchdown. I can't seem to find the right AoA.

 

Next time you are lined-up for takeoff, take note of your attitude.

This is the natural attiude when all three wheels are resting on the ground.

If you touch the runway with exactly the same attitude, then you will be landing a 3-pointer.

Take note of where the horizon is relative to various visual markers on your cockpit (i.e. certani insurements on the dash/ the ewngine cownling etc). I't boviously also dependatn on your field-of-view (zoom) and head placement at the time... but I'm sure you get the idea. You can always screenshot/ print such an image and have it on the wall nearby for reference - I've used similar images before in real life to "learn" attitudes for various regimes of flight.

 

You'll not be able to get this perfectly the same when landing, due to airspeed and AoA requriements, but it will give you a very good visual "feel" for how the air-frame is presenting when seated on the ground.

This is my example, based on my FoV, head position and screen resolution:

KARKbCl.jpg

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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I mean that I sit much lower than you... :D Sorry, my english sucks!

 

 

 

Ah, you can "raise the seat", but you need to bind a key for it in the options.

Part of my start-up procedure is to raise the seat positon a bit. It also helps you see over the nose a bit more.

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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It can't be THAT hard to takeoff and land a real Spit or even a P51 as it is in DCS, can it! ...I mean if it is, then 99% of WWII pilots in training would have been killed! ......What's the REAL story with why it's so difficult in DCS?

 

 

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