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S-300 Version Clarification


FlankerMan

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In the past, I've seen some confusion over the different versions of the Russian S-300 (SA-10 "Grumble") SAM, so I thought I'd try to explain things. Now, in the real world, we have the:

 

S-300PS (SA-10B "Grumble")-Land-based version; uses 5V55KD+5V55R missiles.

S-300PMU-1 (SA-20A "Gargoyle")-Improved land-based version; uses 48N6 missiles.

S-300F Fort (SA-N-6 "Grumble")-Naval (ship-based) version of S-300PS.

S-300FM Fort-M (SA-N-20)-Naval version of S-300PMU-1 for Pyotr Velikiy (Kirov-class); uses 48N6 missiles.

 

The in-game versions are these:

S-300PS-Land-based version, also on Moskva (Slava-class) and Pyotr Velikiy; uses 5V55 missiles.

S-300F-Only on Pyotr Velikiy; uses 48N6 missiles.

 

Right, then, now I'll pair up the real world versions of these guys with their in-game versions. RL=real life; IG=in game. So:

RL S-300PS=IG S-300PS-land based version.

RL S-300F=IG S-300PS-on Moskva+Pyotr Velikiy.

RL S-300FM=IG S-300F.

 

Next post, I'll explain the missile versions and ranges. However, here are some links to sites that may also have helpful information.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=73757

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=29512

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system

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S-300 Missile Version Clarification

 

Okay, as I promised, here goes. Again, RL=real-life, IG=in-game. Here are the real missiles:

5V55KD-Systems: S-300PS; range: 47km.

5V55R-Systems: S-300PS; range: 75-90km.

5V55RM-Systems: S-300F; range: 75-90km.

48N6-Systems: S-300PMU-1, S-300FM; range: 150km. Export: 48N6E.

48N6E2-Systems: S-400; range: 200km.

 

As for the in game versions:

5V55-Systems: S-300PS (including naval versions); range: 45km.

48N6-Systems: S-300F (RL: S-300FM); range: 90km.

48H6E2-Systems: none; range: 90km. Mistranslation of 48N6E2, which isn't in the game.

 

Now, the pair-up:

RL 5V55R=IG 5V55.

RL 48N6=IG 48N6.

RL 48N6E2=IG 48H6E2 (not a real missile).

 

Next post, ranges.


Edited by FlankerMan
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So, in-game Pyotr Velikiy also has both S-300F and S-300FM (the bow battery and radar) installed and uses them both? Interesting, never checked that.

 

Now, the pair-up:

RL 5V55KD=IG 5V55.

RL 48N6=IG 48N6.

 

That seems a bit inconsistent. Pairing the first according to the matching range, while the in-game range of the second missile is half the real life specification.

 

I presume that the real life values are probably maximum range values achieved when engaging an incoming target with a certain airspeed which won't change course. So, it could be that the game uses half of that range for a more realistic engagement range value in which case the missile type in game might be 5V55R instead of 5V55KD.


Edited by Dudikoff

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S-300 Missile Range Clarification

 

So, the ranges (encyclopedia and actual) of the in-game missiles. E=encyclopedia, A=actual.

5V55-E=45km; A=50-60km.

48N6-E=90km; A=80-95km.

Now, please understand that the "Actual" ranges I've posted are under the right conditions: the target is flying 8,500-9,000m above sea level, mostly straight towards the system firing the missiles, and also going 500-600km/h or faster.

 

I hope these posts have helped. Happy flying!

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So, in-game Pyotr Velikiy also has both S-300F and S-300FM (the bow battery and radar) installed and uses them both? Interesting, never checked that.

 

 

 

That seems a bit inconsistent. Pairing the first according to the matching range, while the in-game range of the second missile is half the real life specification.

 

I presume that the real life values are probably maximum range values achieved when engaging an incoming target with a certain airspeed which won't change course. So, it could be that the game uses half of that range for a more realistic engagement range value in which case the missile type in game might be 5V55R instead of 5V55KD.

 

I'm not sure why it seems inconsistent to you, but I suppose the 5V55R would make more sense than the 5V55KD, as real-world missiles seem to always be longer-ranged than their in-game counterparts.

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Okay, I've switched post #2 to say RL 5V55R=IG 5V55, rather than the real world version being the 5V55KD. I've just watched an old video of in-game SA-10s, and the missiles were called 5V55Rs, which must mean that at some point in the past the in-game 5V55 was called the 5V55R.

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Disregarding in-game naming and ranges - some information on naval S-300F applications.

 

Project 1164 Slava class cruisers:

 

One 3R41 Volna tracking radar(max tracking range ~ 90 km) and 8x B-204 rotary launchers with 8x 5V55RM each(64 missiles total). The 5V55RM missile has an engagement range of some 70 km.

 

Project 1144 "Admiral Ushakov" and Project 1144.2 "Admiral Lazarev":

 

Two 3R41 Volna tracking radars and 12 B-203A rotary launchers with 8x 5V55RM each(96 missiles total)

 

Project 1144.2 "Admiral Nakhimov":

 

Two 3R41 Volna tracking radars and 12 B-203A(modified) rotary launchers with 8x 48N6 each(96 missiles total). The 48N6 missile has an engagement range of some 150 km, but is limited in range, since the S-300F system retains the Volna tracking radars.

 

Project 1144.2 "Pyotr Velikiy":

 

One "Tomb Stone" radar front(S-300FM system) and one Volna radar rear. 6 launchers with 48N6 missiles and 6 launchers with 48N6E2 missiles(max range increased to some 190 km) - 96 missiles total.

JJ

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I'm not sure why it seems inconsistent to you, but I suppose the 5V55R would make more sense than the 5V55KD, as real-world missiles seem to always be longer-ranged than their in-game counterparts.

 

I just meant to say that it seemed somewhat inconsistent pairing the 5V55 in game with 5V55KD (with about equal max range values in game and in RL), while the 48N6 in-game is about half the stated maximum range in RL which might indicate that the values in-game are probably not the maximum engagement ranges in RL.


Edited by Dudikoff

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  • 6 months later...

Hello, instead of creating a new S-300 thread, I'll post my doubt here:

 

I've been experimenting flying against a S-300 complex to test it, and I've come to the following conclusion:

 

- DCS version 2.5.4.29004;

- Caucasus map;

- SAM site with: 1 command post; 3 different radars available and 2 different launchers available;

- with the F-14B;

- straight to the SAM site, flying at 44.000 ft height;

 

I'm being detected far away, but I'm only being fired at when I'm at roughly 42 nautical miles from the site.

 

Shouldn't the S-300 complex be able to shoot at me from much further away ?

 

edit:

 

The Pyotr Velikiy Battlecruiser will shoot at 73 nautical miles for roughly the same conditions.


Edited by Top Jockey

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I've seen ~60km max for S-300PS and ~80-95km max for Pyotr Velikiy. The circles are not accurate.

 

Hello FlankerMan,

 

I'm not using the circles as a reference - I'm measuring the distances with that little scale meter reference (at the bottom left corner of the screen).

 

My point is:

 

The actual data on the distances is surely correct - it was just me that really thought the much venerable and famous S-300 system had a bigger "reach" distance ir real life.

 

(And neither was I expecting that the "shipborne" version had more reach either...)


Edited by Top Jockey

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Not trying to dispute Flankerman, just pointing out what I see in the simulation and what I've been able to find in public documents. Difference I see is maybe S-300PMU and PMU-1 I'm guessing from mid 80's?

 

But anyhow, it's really hard to tell exactly because the Soviet systems were changing a lot, but in the documentation here you can see that the one in the simulation essentially models the early S-300PMU (S-300PM upgrade) system which includes the Bigbird tracking radar. That system uses the 5V55R missile and according to the published documents has an effective range of about 29 miles and that reflects what is in DCS World. I've also seen it referenced as the SA-10B and that also shows the image of the 5V55R. If you look at the 3D model of the missile it has a black nosecone which is the same as images of the real deal.

 

The Bigbird will always start tracking you at a much further distance than what they can actually fire at you. It's more of an annoyance but always be careful not to get within their WEZ if you have an idea where they are. Also, open up Tacview and you'll see that the Moskva and the S-300 fire the same missile. So you know you can typically get close to the 29 mile bubble but the missiles can sometimes get you further out. Every once in awhile they have that "magic bullet".

 

It's like dancing with the devil. If they start hard locking you, you're in trouble. They are the longest range Soviet missile in the simulation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/interceptors.htm


Edited by 75th-VFS-Striker

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Not trying to dispute Flankerman, just pointing out what I see in the simulation and what I've been able to find in public documents. Difference I see is maybe S-300PMU and PMU-1 I'm guessing from mid 80's?

 

But anyhow, it's really hard to tell exactly because the Soviet systems were changing a lot, but in the documentation here you can see that the one in the simulation essentially models the early S-300PMU (S-300PM upgrade) system which includes the Bigbird tracking radar. That system uses the 5V55R missile and according to the published documents has an effective range of about 29 miles and that reflects what is in DCS World. I've also seen it referenced as the SA-10B and that also shows the image of the 5V55R. If you look at the 3D model of the missile it has a black nosecone which is the same as images of the real deal.

 

The Bigbird will always start tracking you at a much further distance than what they can actually fire at you. It's more of an annoyance but always be careful not to get within their WEZ if you have an idea where they are. Also, open up Tacview and you'll see that the Moskva and the S-300 fire the same missile. So you know you can typically get close to the 29 mile bubble but the missiles can sometimes get you further out. Every once in awhile they have that "magic bullet".

 

It's like dancing with the devil. If they start hard locking you, you're in trouble. They are the longest range Soviet missile in the simulation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/interceptors.htm

 

Which ones, those aboard the Pyotr Velikiy Battlecruiser ?

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You're right, I didn't realize it was a different missile than the Moskva. The one in the sim uses a 48N6E2 which according to the document has a range of 121 miles. I did a test and I don't think the range is correctly modeled though but I'll test it again.


Edited by 75th-VFS-Striker

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You're right, I didn't realize it was a different missile than the Moskva. The one in the sim uses a 48N6E2 which according to the document has a range of 121 miles. I did a test and I don't think the range is correctly modeled though but I'll test it again.

 

On the conditions I mentioned at post #10, the ranges for being fired at, were roughly:

 

- 42 nm for land based S-300 ;

- 73 nm for Pyotr Velikiy air-defence S-300.

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Yeah, I was just waking up when I started reading this so I didn't take everything in. I just did several tests and every time the Velikiy S-300F didn't engage until the aircraft was within 50nm. I don't think that the distances are modeled as documented. And I've never seen the S-300 land based engage at greater than 30nm but I'll test it again. I'm including the Tacview files. I wouldn't bet my Virtual Pilots butt on the test though. That's a nasty ship!

 

 

They're valid ACMI files. Just add .acmi to the end to open them.

Tacview-20190404-053532-DCS.zip

Tacview-20190404-054331-DCS.zip

Tacview-20190404-054506-DCS.zip

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Here's the SA-10 land based. About 33 miles at 25,000 feet and 30 at 15,000 so a little longer than I had originally stated. You used to be able to get closer but I think ED has adjusted the missile ranges and the templated versions are definitely more effective.

Tacview-20190404-055538-DCS.zip

Tacview-20190404-055710-DCS.zip

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Yeah, I was just waking up when I started reading this so I didn't take everything in. I just did several tests and every time the Velikiy S-300F didn't engage until the aircraft was within 50nm. I don't think that the distances are modeled as documented. And I've never seen the S-300 land based engage at greater than 30nm but I'll test it again. I'm including the Tacview files. I wouldn't bet my Virtual Pilots butt on the test though. That's a nasty ship!

 

 

They're valid ACMI files. Just add .acmi to the end to open them.

 

Ok then, I'll see it.

 

By the way my experimenting set for the land based S-300 complex was :

 

1 x S-300PS CP 54K6 - Command Post

1 x S-300PS SR 5N66M - Search Radar

1 x S-300PS SR 64H6E - Search Radar

1 x S-300PS TR 30N6 - Tracking Radar

4 x S-300PS LN 5P85C - Launcher

4 x S-300PS LN 5P85D - Launcher

 

As I'm not much knowledgeable reagrding SAMs, maybe the short engaging range is due to these being early / older versions, like someone said already ?

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You've got everything. The launcher types perform exactly the same way, so you don't need both types, they just look different. You can get more than the encyclopedia's stated range of 45km.

 

Ok, so the aproximate 42 nm engagement distance (that I measured at the screen) for land based S-300 are expected in real life, as these are probably early versions ?

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Yeah, this is SA-10B, pretty much the second version built. It's still the most capable land-based SAM in the game, though.

 

Outstanding - that was my doubt. :thumbup:

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