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Why are the most unrealistic servers the most popular?


Boris

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Whenever I go online to fly a little bit of multiplayer I'm always a little dismayed at the fact that many of the fullest servers are those with red and blue having pretty much exactly the same aircraft, with Hornets fighting Hornets and Flankers fighting Flankers.

 

Why is this so popular???

 

I'd much rather see some more realistic scenarios with western vs eastern aircraft. However, most servers attempting to make the effort seem to be empty.

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Because you suffer from the same mistaken assumption I did when I first came here, that because DCS is so hardcore and intensive that the average player would be somehow a cut above the normal casual pleb you encounter online.

 

This is untrue. DCS has just as many filthy casuals, button mashing killwhores, and minmaxing meta players as any other game. Lots of cheaters and hackers, too, given half a chance.

 

My experience online revealed roughly 50% of players, despite having played for extensive periods of time, routinely scrub landings, and usually spam weapons for cheap kills with little or no tactical thought. That scenarios that revolve around AirQuake and cheap kills are the most popular is no surprise. People want thrills and kills, and to live out their fighter pilot power fantasy.

 

It doesn't help that 90% of mission designers wouldn't have the slightest idea what a realistic scenario looks like, nor that 99% of players would find such a scenario to be deeply unfun i.e. ''too hard''.

 

Sorry. It's a gut wrenching realisation when it first hits you, but DCS is no better than anyplace else online =) You won't find much intelligent gameplay outside of clans, and being a hardcore milsim, a large percentage of the more professionally minded clans will be LARPers with delusions of glory and/or reliving their military days.

 

Competent yet not overly rigid clans are comparatively few alongside the blatantly casual and excessively hardcore. There are a few though, I'm sure, so I'd advise you to hit the recruitment threads and see if anybody sounds appealing

 

-edit

Btw Flanker vs Flanker or Hornet vs Hornet is not inherently unrealistic. Russia vs Ukraine, for example, or say US vs Pakistan would result in like vs like conflict. What you're requesting is traditional Cold War, but it's not ''more realistic'' persay


Edited by zhukov032186

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Do what I did, build whatever mission you fancy.

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Do what I did, build whatever mission you fancy.

 

 

This ^^ :)

 

 

 

This is why we built Storm of War. It just wasnt very popular due to the tiny WW2 player base.Hopefully it will return once the damage model is released.

 

 

Player behaviour online CAN be affected with mission design elements and with certain incentives.

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The problem is balance.

 

A 'realistic' server would be too one sided. Despite how passionate some people are about wanting 'realism' in the game... all that craving goes straight out the window when they start getting AMRAAMs in the face, and people end up leaving the server.

Then the focus moves from 'hey I want a realistic server' to 'hey this isn't fair, everyone is on Blue'

 

Sadly we do not have enough full fidelity aircraft to properly balance the teams so any realistic East vs West set up would always end up with more clients on Blue than on Red.

 

You have to be careful what you wish for as you will quickly find that a hyper realism server would quickly just become a NATO power train with Red getting rolled over every match.

No one wants to be part of that... which is why there are very little if any servers set up like this.

 

Because most people do not want to fly FC3 aircraft on Red against Full Fidelity modules on Blue plus the Blue FC3 aircraft, aircraft sides have to be mixed or be made unrealistic.

If you don't do this you end up with an empty server or basically just a PvE server where everyone is on the same team, because the bottom line is there are no Full Fidelity Red jets and not enough people who want to fly FC3 against Blue.

 

There are servers with non mixed teams however with aircraft being only available on one side. Blue Flag is a great example and also the 104th server is currently running a 'Navy vs Airforce' mission set with F-18, F-14 and A/V-8B all being available on Blue and all the other FC3 jets and M2000 available on Red.

The only mission with mixed aircraft on both sides is our Persian Gulf Sandstorm that has the F-14 on Blue but also a limited number on Red for the Iranian forces.

 

While most of us crave realism to a certain extend, however the majority of online players want to have fun and flying in highly populated servers is very intense regardless of how realistic the set up is. This is what makes it popular, the intensity and fun that people have.

 

The cold, hard, sad truth is, a hyper realistic server would only be fun for the Blue aircraft. Despite how motivated some Red pilots would be after a while you would see a huge drop off in their numbers and it would turn in to a Blue PvE mission.

 

This situation won't change until we start to get Full Fidelity Eastern aircraft.

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;4006567']The problem is balance.

 

A 'realistic' server would be too one sided. Despite how passionate some people are about wanting 'realism' in the game... all that craving goes straight out the window when they start getting AMRAAMs in the face, and people end up leaving the server.

Then the focus moves from 'hey I want a realistic server' to 'hey this isn't fair, everyone is on Blue'

 

Sadly we do not have enough full fidelity aircraft to properly balance the teams so any realistic East vs West set up would always end up with more clients on Blue than on Red.

 

You have to be careful what you wish for as you will quickly find that a hyper realism server would quickly just become a NATO power train with Red getting rolled over every match.

No one wants to be part of that... which is why there are very little if any servers set up like this.

 

Because most people do not want to fly FC3 aircraft on Red against Full Fidelity modules on Blue plus the Blue FC3 aircraft, aircraft sides have to be mixed or be made unrealistic.

If you don't do this you end up with an empty server or basically just a PvE server where everyone is on the same team, because the bottom line is there are no Full Fidelity Red jets and not enough people who want to fly FC3 against Blue.

 

There are servers with non mixed teams however with aircraft being only available on one side. Blue Flag is a great example and also the 104th server is currently running a 'Navy vs Airforce' mission set with F-18, F-14 and A/V-8B all being available on Blue and all the other FC3 jets and M2000 available on Red.

The only mission with mixed aircraft on both sides is our Persian Gulf Sandstorm that has the F-14 on Blue but also a limited number on Red for the Iranian forces.

 

While most of us crave realism to a certain extend, however the majority of online players want to have fun and flying in highly populated servers is very intense regardless of how realistic the set up is. This is what makes it popular, the intensity and fun that people have.

 

The cold, hard, sad truth is, a hyper realistic server would only be fun for the Blue aircraft. Despite how motivated some Red pilots would be after a while you would see a huge drop off in their numbers and it would turn in to a Blue PvE mission.

 

This situation won't change until we start to get Full Fidelity Eastern aircraft.

 

 

BMPO, its not about the flying or skills, its all about player vs missile duel. So who places "better" missile in game, thats the one that has most players on its side. Untill now, west has deployed 120Cs and 9x as their pinnacle tech ingame. Theres no even close east counter missiles with that CM level even in RL theres much to discuss about. Player are confomists, lets not call them chicken. When one red skill seaking player learns to counter Aim120s and effectively avoid 9x what then? Is lag whitching or server DoS a solution to underperfoming skills of typical blue confomist in game when confronted with overskilled aim120 avoider in inferior 80's tech plane with some good SA systems? Lets not forget about pricing of missiles if we want realism. Spamming 10xAMRAAMS on potentially target infested sky zone in not really economically justified only by fear of pilot in BVR safe zone. Its like givingaway of 20% of airframe value justified by potential fear. Maybee being conformist in RL is ok but being chicken in virtual enviroment if really dumb if you have a chance to learn some rare skills that are not possible to obtain in RL. ED is pushing conformist agenda, judged by missile asset performance on blue side. I think its not getting along by the olympics standard. Its more of conformists against nutcases fight. When nutcase evolves enough, conformists are doomed.

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Perhaps the error is in assuming that the most popular servers were always the ones you'd want to fly on. One big part of multiplayer is obviously duelling against other human pilots, which is why that kind of server is very popular, and that - as has been pointed out - is sometimes hindered by the fact that for 'classic' scenarios, which the same people would like to have, we have a very lopsided plane set available and a sense of balance is important. Nobody likes to be nothing but fodder, of course.

There are other servers, including more AI elements, more cooperative elements and such. Thing is, some of these are geared to not 30 players but work out with 5. Just sorting by player numbers isn't always going to give you the best experience.

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@Maverick

The ''balance'' issue you describe is mainly because of the Air Quake mentality. If it is strictly scattered fighters 1v1ing each other, then yes, the most meta option will be selected by 90% of people. A ''realistic'' mission would not be scattered 1v1 or 1v2 dogfights. It would be a lot more involved in that.

 

Servers don't run those missions because the player base doesn't want them. The player base wants to spam cheap kills, just like in every other game.

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@Maverick

The ''balance'' issue you describe is mainly because of the Air Quake mentality. If it is strictly scattered fighters 1v1ing each other, then yes, the most meta option will be selected by 90% of people. A ''realistic'' mission would not be scattered 1v1 or 1v2 dogfights. It would be a lot more involved in that.

 

Servers don't run those missions because the player base doesn't want them. The player base wants to spam cheap kills, just like in every other game.

Exactly. It doesn't even have to be imbalanced. Assymetric Balance is the keyword here, but unfortunately very few servers try to achieve that on a deep level :(

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Perhaps the error is in assuming that the most popular servers were always the ones you'd want to fly on. One big part of multiplayer is obviously duelling against other human pilots, which is why that kind of server is very popular, and that - as has been pointed out - is sometimes hindered by the fact that for 'classic' scenarios, which the same people would like to have, we have a very lopsided plane set available and a sense of balance is important. Nobody likes to be nothing but fodder, of course.

There are other servers, including more AI elements, more cooperative elements and such. Thing is, some of these are geared to not 30 players but work out with 5. Just sorting by player numbers isn't always going to give you the best experience.

 

Also this. DCS was not designed as a peristent MMO. It's geared toward individual sorties. Scenarios trying to make ONE good mission, instead of trying to do some ''persistent online PvP'' crap is going to yield a better result.

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War has never been "balanced". One guy has always had a bigger club than the other guy. I suggest keeping "balance" out of DCS. Or it will become just another online game.

 

DCS isn't a real war, it's a game. You seem to have missed that little distinction.

 

Games are pretty much always balanced. It is the most obvious, basic prerequisite.

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War has never been "balanced". One guy has always had a bigger club than the other guy.

That's not really true. The entire Cold War was a stalemate pretty much. Even at times when it went hot. Korea ended up going right back to where it started.

 

 

There are solutions to superior technology anyway. I'd still like to see Blue forced into a more offensive role, possibly with less total aircraft, while Red plays defenselessly with more SAM cover (especially with IADS coming) and a larger total force.

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That's not really true. The entire Cold War was a stalemate pretty much. Even at times when it went hot. Korea ended up going right back to where it started.

 

 

There are solutions to superior technology anyway. I'd still like to see Blue forced into a more offensive role, possibly with less total aircraft, while Red plays defenselessly with more SAM cover (especially with IADS coming) and a larger total force.

 

This is precisely what happens during Red Alert matches by Alpenwolf. So far it is 2:0 for red guys apparently. But granted, it's just one event per month at the most.

 

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Flying F-18 and F-15 you have the chance to fox at multiple aircraft, The eastern stuff like SU-27 blah blah you have good mutual support you can quite easily put pressure on. You always need 2x SU-27 to 1x F-15 its called flanker for a reason with good support it can be tougher for the western guys to get there kills.

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Because you suffer from the same mistaken assumption I did when I first came here, that because DCS is so hardcore and intensive that the average player would be somehow a cut above the normal casual pleb you encounter online.

 

This is untrue. DCS has just as many filthy casuals, button mashing killwhores, and minmaxing meta players as any other game. Lots of cheaters and hackers, too, given half a chance.

 

My experience online revealed roughly 50% of players, despite having played for extensive periods of time, routinely scrub landings, and usually spam weapons for cheap kills with little or no tactical thought. That scenarios that revolve around AirQuake and cheap kills are the most popular is no surprise. People want thrills and kills, and to live out their fighter pilot power fantasy.

 

It doesn't help that 90% of mission designers wouldn't have the slightest idea what a realistic scenario looks like, nor that 99% of players would find such a scenario to be deeply unfun i.e. ''too hard''.

 

Sorry. It's a gut wrenching realisation when it first hits you, but DCS is no better than anyplace else online =) You won't find much intelligent gameplay outside of clans, and being a hardcore milsim, a large percentage of the more professionally minded clans will be LARPers with delusions of glory and/or reliving their military days.

 

Competent yet not overly rigid clans are comparatively few alongside the blatantly casual and excessively hardcore. There are a few though, I'm sure, so I'd advise you to hit the recruitment threads and see if anybody sounds appealing

 

-edit

Btw Flanker vs Flanker or Hornet vs Hornet is not inherently unrealistic. Russia vs Ukraine, for example, or say US vs Pakistan would result in like vs like conflict. What you're requesting is traditional Cold War, but it's not ''more realistic'' persay

 

Its depressingly true.

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;4006567']The problem is balance.

 

This situation won't change until we start to get Full Fidelity Eastern aircraft.

 

I'd argue its more than that. For a start you need a few vaguely "balanced" aircraft. Which isn't going to happen for anything even remotely modern. So you're back at the cold war anyway.

 

I think the closest thing that will happen in the vaguely near future for DCS is that we will get the F14A and F4E for a 70's/80's blue air fix. We will also get the mig-23mla. So now the blue/red planeset will vaguely be balanced.

 

Blue

F14A (coming) And realistically it will have to be gimped somehow, otherwise its just gonna be a bluefor phoenix fest.

F4E (coming)

F5E

F86

Viggen (limiting weapons like Bk90's)

Harrier (maybe, if you limit weapons and no Tpod) Even then its "too advanced in many ways" It might be better if it could carry older aim9P's.

 

Red

Mig 15

Mig 19

Mig 21bis

Mig 23mla (coming)

 

The best Red V. blue server I've seen is alpenwolf's cold war server, but its mainly euro player dominated, so unless you can play around noon or so no one is on. And even then the missions aren't particularly realistic. Hopefully the upcoming DCS IADS and Dynamic campaign upgrades can help here.

 

But still the issue is as much with the MP aeroquake community as anything else.


Edited by Harlikwin

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I find the comments asking for more realistic server missions quite interesting.

Whilst they’re my own personal preference, I’m conscious that when I’ve put together a more focused mission and set the server to open, that I rarely have anyone join.

Seems that most of the genuinely dedicated players are already in squadrons using their locked servers.

 

As such, most of the online servers appear to be trying to appeal to everyone by allowing people to fly anything.

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Actually, this is exactly why I created my own server. I prefer simulation over gaming. Just my opinion. And by gaming I mean the launch-sling missiles-die...crowd. I can't stand that stuff.

I prefer to fly with a few buddies, plan out a mission, and execute it. To each his own.

 

As to the OP's question... I suppose in this day of twitch streamers, they want to show how good they are at killing A-10's with F-18's.

 

 

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As to the OP's question... I suppose in this day of twitch streamers, they want to show how good they are at killing A-10's with F-18's.

 

Or they're just having fun doing what they enjoy with the limited time they have.

 

The toughest skills to maintain in this sim is A2A combat and A2G in a hostile airspace, that is why high count mp is so popular. If you want to attract a crowd you have to appeal to both sides of the battle, therefore with the current DCS the colours red and blue are just that, colours.

 

These so called airquake servers have for the most part detailed objectives, they are cleverly designed missions with the exception of a balanced plane set to attract numbers.

 

Seems strange to me that there are servers out there that fill the requests for realism, but because they are not packed with players the realism purists don't join.

Yet when they are in a server that is packed they complain about getting shotdown.

 

How do you think servers become popular?

Join it and fly it, get a couple of buddies to join you and do your bit to make your favourite server popular. But don't make it too popular or you'll be struggling to get to the AO without getting shotdown.

 

The other solution is you can come here and piss and moan about other players preferences and the sheep that follow the crowd, like every other poor soul over the last 15 year that wanted the best of both Worlds.

 

What DCS multiplayer needs is a player balancing system to help make realistic mission creation relevant.


Edited by Frostie

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This is why I got into squadrons. My experience with public servers is someone has an hour before work or school to play, or an hour after kids are in bed and just want to jump in, shoot some missiles and exit the game. No time for real life procedures or tactics. That's fair. When I did that I would usually jump to the side with the least planes, so I liked having the F18 (or A10 a few years ago) on both sides.

 

The people that want it more realistic and join squadrons of like minded people do have to commit alot more thought and time to the game. But for me the satisfaction of flying with skilled people you know and completing well planned and briefed missions successfully is worth the time commitment.

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