LeCuvier Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 If one day Octopus adds a Game mode then these "user-friendliness" features would be well placed there. But they have no legitimate place in a simulation. This bird is tough to fly, and in the absence of technical complexities that's what makes it interesting. LeCuvier Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 because this certainly wasn't a disclaimer listed on the purchasing page:huh: I don't think "this aircraft features no trim" should be in any disclaimer mate, it's a well known fact for the model and for any aviation enthusiast out there and we have seen in other simulators since like 20 years ago. What disclaimer do you need? The model is what it is, they modelled how it is. That's all. DISCLAIMER, THIS MODULE IS TRUE TO REAL LIFE MODEL :doh: . S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Hey 2 of those levers re-cock the guns when the Mosin-Nagant rounds jamb the guns. you have actualy 4 handles for recoking mgs in i-16 :) 2 for wings mgs and 2 for fuselage mgs :) System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzarog Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) You don't fly around with flaps deployed if you want to do it right And you know this from what quoted historical source? Military pilots of WWII era always found ways to make their jobs easier, even though it was not the “required method.” I remember reading an account of U.S. Marine and Navy pilots in the Buffalo or Wildcat not cranking down the gear in the specified manner. Instead of cranking, they would unlock the gear, start to crank it down, and then rock the plane from side to side to allow gravity and inertia to lower the gear. Strictly unauthorized, but much faster. How do you know that Soviet pilots didn’t use similar unauthorized methods to easy their flight? Also this aircraft had ground adjustable trim tabs in the elevator and ailerons that were set to fly straight and level at a specific true airspeed, exactly the same as the Bf-109 and the Fw-190. Edited May 14, 2019 by Balzarog Correction When all else fails, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS! i-7 8700K Coffee Lake 5 GHz OC CPU, 32GB Corsair 3200 RAM, GTX1080 Ti 11Gb VRAM. Controls - Thrustmaster Warthog H.O.T.A.S., Saitek Pro rudder pedals, TrackIR 5, Oculus Rift S, Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Hey 2 of those levers re-cock the guns when the Mosin-Nagant rounds jamb the guns.Indeed it's exactly the same calibre but you couldn't use Mosin-Nagant ammo on these weapons, or these weapons ammo in a Mosin. Using rifle ammo wouldn't make Shkas machine guns work as it needs a special ammo to achieve it's high ROF, on the other hand using Shkas ammo in a Mosin-Nagant would make the chamber explode. S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) And you know this from what quoted historical source? Military pilots of WWII era always found ways to make their jobs easier, even though it was not the “required method.” I remember reading an account of U.S. Marine and Navy pilots in the Buffalo or Bearcat not cranking down the gear in the specified manner. Instead of cranking, they would unlock the gear, start to crank it down, and then rock the plane from side to side to allow gravity and inertia to lower the gear. Strictly unauthorized, but much faster. How do you know that Soviet pilots didn’t use similar unauthorized methods to easy their flight?Because flying without trimming is not that though in the real deal, they have a really long stick and forces are not that strong. The problem is for you using a short stick with a spring at home. What is known, indeed, is story on how type 10 introduced flaps and how a test pilot died and the flaps wear welded to prevent accidents. S! Edited May 13, 2019 by Ala13_ManOWar "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApoNOOB Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Personally I would have no problem with an option (enforcable by admins in MP) to have some kind of cheat function, either trim or even very simple autopilot. From my point of view in the DCS sandbox there are a lot of situations where such a function is justifiable. Take a freeflight scenario for example, you are in MP, a casual server where such a function would be no problem for other pilots, suddenly something IRL comes up. You can not go afk, pause etc. but would it really kill anyone if there was some kind of relief? But I would advocate this for many more modules aswell, not even considering the lack of trim in this plane. Again, enforcable by mission editor/ admin, no danger for 100% realism servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeCuvier Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 The point of swimming is still to have fun... Not just fun - it's also good physical exercise. But I'm afraid you are on the wrong forum. This one is not for water sports. :) LeCuvier Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) :huh: I don't think "this aircraft features no trim" should be in any disclaimer mate, it's a well known fact for the model and for any aviation enthusiast out there and we have seen in other simulators since like 20 years ago. What disclaimer do you need? The model is what it is, they modelled how it is. That's all. DISCLAIMER, THIS MODULE IS TRUE TO REAL LIFE MODEL :doh: . S! Maybe from your perspective, but not from mine. no its not a well known fact to me as someone who generally wasn't really interested in aviation predating ww2. i16 is a Russian plane and i am not fluent in Russian let alone the Cyrillic alphabet, so i have not read over any manuals. It doesn't have the same coverage as more iconic planes from ww2 ( or even pre ww2), and your typical text doesn't blatantly point out "oh btw no trim on such older aircraft" all other modules from ED list aircraft features. Edited May 13, 2019 by Kev2go Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 You don't need to know Russian, or read cyrillic in order to having read or known that fact since the old times of simulation in which this were a prominent aircraft. But well, you maybe too young for that, for instance, or whatever. all other modules from ED list aircraft features.Yeah, but "not having trim" is not "a feature". S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 You don't need to know Russian, or read cyrillic in order to having read or known that fact since the old times of simulation in which this were a prominent aircraft. But well, you maybe too young for that, for instance, or whatever. Yeah, but "not having trim" is not "a feature". S! Maybe from a Spanish cultural perspective it is, because it was used in your civil war in the 30s. From North American perspective no its not really seen as a significant plane here. Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) This is how significant the nose down is when i let go of the stick. Note the axis view window, that i am not pushing it down It doesn't feel like neutral at all, and it feels almost as if it were drastically trimmed downwards. ( that is if there was trim) So yes i think you can understand why lack of trim is a real nuisance Edited May 14, 2019 by Kev2go Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzarog Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 For crying out loud, it’s Early Access! According to specs on “the other WWII Eastern Front” flight combat game, it has ground adjustable trim tabs, the same as all the other WWII airplanes, except the P-51. The Spitfire is the only reciprocating European fighter in DCS that has an actual elevator trim. The Germans have only an adjustable horizontal stabilizer (angle of incidence), which isn’t a true trim tab. None of the Europeans have adjustable roll trim, so the developers have to program the “straight and level flight model” for a specific true airspeed. Give the developer some slack. When all else fails, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS! i-7 8700K Coffee Lake 5 GHz OC CPU, 32GB Corsair 3200 RAM, GTX1080 Ti 11Gb VRAM. Controls - Thrustmaster Warthog H.O.T.A.S., Saitek Pro rudder pedals, TrackIR 5, Oculus Rift S, Rift CV1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) We all can read early access, but it doesn't help when there is no communication on known issues, ( or ones brought up by players) from the team. Edited May 14, 2019 by Kev2go Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Maybe from a Spanish cultural perspective it is, because it was used in your civil war in the 30s.Yes, but I meant relevant from the Simulation perspective as we have flown this aircraft in the Eastern front like 18 years. S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeCuvier Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 We all can read early access, but it doesn't help when there is no communication on known issues, ( or ones brought up by players) from the team. If the real I-16 had elevator trim then the lack of it in the simulation would be an issue. But since the historical plane didn't, you can't legitimately talk about an issue here. And since it was designed in the early 1930's it's not a real surprise that it was rather basic by our standards. Christ, it doesn't have an autopilot either! Is that an issue too? Having that this, it wouldn't have hurt if ED in the announcement had given some specifics about the aircraft design which would have avoided the disappointment some of us experienced... LeCuvier Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted May 15, 2019 Author Share Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) If the real I-16 had elevator trim then the lack of it in the simulation would be an issue. But since the historical plane didn't, you can't legitimately talk about an issue here. And since it was designed in the early 1930's it's not a real surprise that it was rather basic by our standards. Christ, it doesn't have an autopilot either! Is that an issue too? Having that this, it wouldn't have hurt if ED in the announcement had given some specifics about the aircraft design which would have avoided the disappointment some of us experienced... please re read the other users post i responded to which was in response to the video. Edited May 16, 2019 by Kev2go Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toriy Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) To eliminate the reactive torque of the propeller the vertical stabilizer of the aircraft was installed with displacement from the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. Since the M-22 and M-25 (M-62) engines had a different direction of rotation, the I-16 type 4 had a turn of the the vertical stabilizer to the right by 2 degrees, for all subsequent types the vertical stabilizer was turned to 2 degrees to the left. The horizontal stabilizer could be adjusted on the ground within 3 degrees to achieve the most acceptable loads on the pilot's control stick for different CG options. We need an option to regulate the stab befor the flight depending on CG, I think this is enough. Edited May 15, 2019 by Toriy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxDollarsAtWork Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 Maybe from your perspective, but not from mine. no its not a well known fact to me as someone who generally wasn't really interested in aviation predating ww2. i16 is a Russian plane and i am not fluent in Russian let alone the Cyrillic alphabet, so i have not read over any manuals. It doesn't have the same coverage as more iconic planes from ww2 ( or even pre ww2), and your typical text doesn't blatantly point out "oh btw no trim on such older aircraft" all other modules from ED list aircraft features. It would seem the burden of research was on you the consumer they did their job telling you what plane and variant you were getting and it's your fault for not doing your due diligence on the topic. Lack of information on the plane in the west? I doubt it highly the Russians are very proud of the plane rightly so as it was a watershed moment in aviation history and it had quite an impressive service life. And many books have also been published in English as well like those by Mikhail Maslov. His books might be a good place to start to spare you any further embarrassment though you might be used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) To eliminate the reactive torque of the propeller the vertical stabilizer of the aircraft was installed with displacement from the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. Since the M-22 and M-25 (M-62) engines had a different direction of rotation, the I-16 type 4 had a turn of the the vertical stabilizer to the right by 2 degrees, for all subsequent types the vertical stabilizer was turned to 2 degrees to the left. The horizontal stabilizer could be adjusted on the ground within 3 degrees to achieve the most acceptable loads on the pilot's control stick for different CG options. We need an option to regulate the stab befor the flight depending on CG, I think this is enough. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Edited May 15, 2019 by jcomm Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJockel Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 Lack of information on the plane in the west? I doubt it highly the Russians are very proud of the plane rightly so as it was a watershed moment in aviation history and it had quite an impressive service life. And many books have also been published in English as well like those by Mikhail Maslov. His books might be a good place to start to spare you any further embarrassment though you might be used to it. Nobody should even need a book / manual for this, as it's pretty common knowledge that this thing didn't have, nor is trim any kind of must have for a plane. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northstar98 Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) what are you even flying this airplane for if you cut out every distinctive aspect just because its an inconvenience? This! It's be like saying, I really like the AV-8B and all, but not having A-A radar is an inconvenience, option please? As for options with auto rudder for takeoff assistance, near enough all of us (I imagine have sticks) but a few of us (most? some? throw me a bone here) don't have pedals and have fairly lackluster yaw control, and for some WWII birds are a pain in the backside to take off even with pedals, let alone with a twisting joystick. I don't personally use it, but to me adding trim would be kind-of like giving aircraft easy mode flight characteristics, or more convenient radars, or weapons. Edited May 15, 2019 by Northstar98 Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk. Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas. System: GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV. Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxDollarsAtWork Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 Nobody should even need a book / manual for this, as it's pretty common knowledge that this thing didn't have, nor is trim any kind of must have for a plane. That is true as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted May 15, 2019 Author Share Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) Nobody should even need a book / manual for this, as it's pretty common knowledge that this thing didn't have, nor is trim any kind of must have for a plane. Au contraire, despite the common parroting some others have discovered that does have a form of trim, just not adjustable mid flight. This will reduce the amount of pressure on the control stick needed to keep it level. To eliminate the reactive torque of the propeller the vertical stabilizer of the aircraft was installed with displacement from the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. Since the M-22 and M-25 (M-62) engines had a different direction of rotation, the I-16 type 4 had a turn of the the vertical stabilizer to the right by 2 degrees, for all subsequent types the vertical stabilizer was turned to 2 degrees to the left. The horizontal stabilizer could be adjusted on the ground within 3 degrees to achieve the most acceptable loads on the pilot's control stick for different CG options. We need an option to regulate the stab befor the flight depending on CG, I think this is enough. Edited May 15, 2019 by Kev2go Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev2go Posted May 15, 2019 Author Share Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) It would seem the burden of research was on you the consumer they did their job telling you what plane and variant you were getting and it's your fault for not doing your due diligence on the topic. Lack of information on the plane in the west? I doubt it highly the Russians are very proud of the plane rightly so as it was a watershed moment in aviation history and it had quite an impressive service life. And many books have also been published in English as well like those by Mikhail Maslov. His books might be a good place to start to spare you any further embarrassment though you might be used to it. Perhaps its the ones who were spreading ( however unintentional), misinformation should be the ones who should be embarrassed before scalding others for not doing enough research before pre purchasing a module. Seriously I16 might be some ones passion plane here, with some things being obvious for them, but not everyone is a know it all with regards to every single aircraft in existence and their intricate trivia, especially if its not some well known icon. Edited May 16, 2019 by Kev2go Build: Windows 10 64 bit Pro Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD, WD 1TB HDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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