The fighter fight: MiG-29 vs. F-15 vs. Su-27 vs. Su-33

^^^^too bad you aint the best one arround :D

to bad that people forget that its not the plain that make the win rather then good training and teamwork.

That's why Us pilots are the best, Not because of their Technological birds but because of mount of training they do get.

I see Su-27 MIG-29 and MIG-31 as bigger technological achievements. But wouldn't say they take home the fight because they have better Birds.

Its been proven in Vietnam where F-4s entered a dogfight whit much more maneuverable Mig-21s but still took home most of the kills.

I would only refer to training and experience.

Wanna bet? Training is a great thing, you assume that your opponents are trained also. This is why you want every technological edge you can get as well.

In addition, a well trained pilot is in trouble against a superior number of not-so-well trained pilots. This is precicely why the F-15 AMRAAM capability was fielded - to allow an F-15 to successfuly engage multiple MiG-29A's (make no mistake about it .. the big 'enemy of the day' in A2A WAS the MiG-29A back then) before they closed to WVR where things get much sportier.

Otherwise they'd all be flying F-16A's for F-5's ;)

In reality ... there is the F-22.

to bad that people forget that its not the plain that make the win rather then good training and teamwork.

That's why Us pilots are the best, Not because of their Technological birds but because of the training.

Did u know that when F-15 was just released the british pilots in Lightning Mk1 was pounding them on till they learned how to use the machine right.

sorry its off topic.

I would say technology is very important but training/teamwork is more.

So Alexrey I would say fly the plain u have some passion for at list in Lomac they are pretty equal.

And I'm saying both are very important.

I've heard a lot of 'old planes pounded on new planes' incident, including Harriers vs. F-4's ... those were ususally one-time tricks that stopped working after use #1.

The F-15 is a cold war machine. It is a machine that had to take EVERYTHING with it to the fight, and bring that fight away from its own home, and to the enemy's home, facing superior numbers of enemies. You can't win that one with just training.

Did u know that when F-15 was just released the british pilots in Lightning Mk1 was pounding them on till they learned how to use the machine right.

sorry its off topic.

I would say technology is very important but training/teamwork is more.

And -that- is patently incorrect, though certain there is truth in it in some sense if you understand the internal workings in LOMAC.

So Alexrey I would say fly the plain u have some passion for at list in Lomac they are pretty equal.

The key to getting a higher kill rate with the ET/77 combo on the Mig compared to F-15 is data-link.

This is surely a major factor in many Mig pilots getting their kills.

Put 77's on an F-15 and im sure there would not be much difference than with the AMRAAM.

ET's on the otherhand are a poisoned chalice,your damned if you use them, though a lot of pilots use them legtimately, the 30km snipers give these weapons an aura of unfairness and make the value of the ET kill by others unfairly judged.

The key to getting a higher kill rate with the ET/77 combo on the Mig compared to F-15 is data-link.

This is surely a major factor in many Mig pilots getting their kills.

Put 77's on an F-15 and im sure there would not be much difference than with the AMRAAM.

Actualy I have tried this. Again, practice is more reliable than theory.

Makes HUGE difference. It is much faster to get to target and has a NEZ greater than the AMRAAM in all aspects (mos notably from the rear). With the increased advantage using TWS radar mode the opposition has much smaller window of escape and an even less chance to fire back.

The only disavantage of the R-77 is that its less agile up close (IRL precisely the oppsite is true).

I used 2 computers with network RJ45 cables and played againts my brother.

Would you like to try AMRAAM on flanker and R-77 on F-15 one of these days?

My opinion was theory so im not going to argue against your practice, if you say its a big difference I believe you.;)

Actualy I have tried this. Again, practice is more reliable than theory.

Makes HUGE difference. It is much faster to get to target and has a NEZ greater than the AMRAAM in all aspects (mos notably from the rear). With the increased advantage using TWS radar mode the opposition has much smaller window of escape and an even less chance to fire back.

 

The only disavantage of the R-77 is that its less agile up close (IRL precisely the oppsite is true).

 

I used 2 computers with network RJ45 cables and played againts my brother.

 

Would you like to try AMRAAM on flanker and R-77 on F-15 one of these days?

I can second this. Experienced the same ;).

Ramwinder with a top speed less than that of a late 1970s sidewinder(fact!) isn't very long range atm.

^^^^too bad you aint the best one arround :D

Neither are you but blessed are the believers :P

We are not fallowing the topic, I bet Alexray dont get anything from our arguments against etch other. Give some info about the F-15/MIG/SU-27/33 instead, and lets try not to say whats bad and whats should be better( talk to ED about this not whit new comers). Tell new people whats good instead, and promote Lomac. As some people appear when they talk about their bird I wonder why they even fly Lock on, If so much is wrong.

I would say Lock ON is the best SIM that have been out, Not because it has advanced avionics but because there has never been a sim out where All this wonderful bird can compete against etch other in multiplayer, Its amazing I love to chase F-15s, Which is not easy when they have so mutch better engines then Su-27/33.

Neither are you but blessed are the believers :P

me thinks you missed the point of my sarcasm. :)

Yea maybe you guys could give me then the advantages and disadvantages of each fighter? :) One thing I have noticed is that the MiG-29 can climb very easily compared to the Su-27.

Yea maybe you guys could give me then the advantages and disadvantages of each fighter? :) One thing I have noticed is that the MiG-29 can climb very easily compared to the Su-27.

Yes. I've got a comparison of climb rates LO's birds on my computer. But can't find now( So I'm searching for it now

Ok, an attempt for an input now.

Regarding BVR-

Su-27/33- Advantage of the Su-27/33 is the big number of missiles onboard. Detection range and look-down capabilites are also good. That gives to the Flanker room for more option than the MiG for example- you detect him further he can. Also- the 27/33 is a flying fuel tank- great range and you don't have to worry about flying burners that much, again compared to the mig. Also it has the missiles with biggest range in the game (human controlled a/c). Disadvantage- no active missiles, no TWS shots, you need to go STT and always compromise your launch, so in multiple target engagement it's more dificult than the F-15. It's deadliest weapon in LO is the 27ET because it gives no warning. The Su-33 has an advantage of having two extra long range missiles.

F-15- powerful radar, great detection and lock range, great look down abilities. With fuel tanks it's range is even bigger than Flanker's and carrying fuel tanks doesn't block any weapon hard point like the wingtanks of the MiG. It can carry up to 8 active missiles which could be launched in TWS mode thus giving warning only after the missile goes active (pitbull). IFF is partically modeled and for that the F-15 is "famous" with the plane with most teamkills. You can IFF but you must be careful. Disadvatage- lack of passive sensors (EOS) and small chance of surprise. So when engaging you always have yourself compromised.

MiG-29S- deadliest plane in LO- small size, harder to detect, hard to spot visualy. It carries the deadliest missiles in LO- 27ET and 77. Weapon system is the same as of Su-27/33's with less powerful radar but fire-and-forget ability because of the R-77. Great acceleration rate and seems to be the only plane in LO with relatively exact drag at supersonic speed. With all other planes you can't go faster than Mach 1.2-1.3 with payload. The missiles are like airbrakes. Biggest disadvantage- short range, even with 1 tank. But because of the great acceleration you may stay out of burner and still engage or break. If you take wingtanks too then you can't take 27ER/ET missiles. This is other weak point of the MiG- 6 missiles in total with only 4 medium range. So two things are cruicial for that plane- fuel and missile management.

Another important moment IMO is that flying all planes will greatly improve the skills. By knowing the advantages of one plane you can predict what to expect when you face it. I was flying russian planes only in BVR but from about 1-2 months I started trying the F-15 and I liked it. It made me better understand the BVR when I looked from the other side.

For dogfight-

Flanker or Eagle- no doubt about that. The MiG is so castrated in that area that it's not even funny. You can do it but you must go out of the standarts. There are people in my squad that can write Ph.D. thesis on that so I'll let them speak. The F-15 has better TWR than Su-27 and sustained turn rate too at higher speed. But watch out your pull- Eagle's pilot blacks out sooner than Flanker's.

I like flying all planes and I can say I became equaly good (or bad, depending on the point of view :P- if the bottle is half full of halp empty) in any of them both in BVR and guns. Learning all of them equally made me enjoy LO even more.

Great writeup^^

From my experience though i much prefer fighting Mig29s in my Su27.

You have better SA, longer staying power, put them on the defensive sooner and the option to outrun them if things get hairy, or to chase them down after theyve dumped their 77/ET load at your chaff/flare ball.

Great post Tito!

Few more things to add-

The F-15 has the advantage of carrying more countermeasures. So in the russian planes you have to be more careful while using them.

With AWACS or EWR avaialble in the mission the russian planes have the advantage of the datalink picture which they can use for sneak attacks.

I hope that gives a basic picture to you, Alexray.

With AWACS or EWR avaialble in the mission the russian planes have the advantage of the datalink picture which they can use for sneak attacks.

And we all know the 15 has the datalink capability missing too, but i guess its all in the name of "gameplay balance" :music_whistling:

You have to remember the F15 didnt have a datalink from the outset, and apply that to whatever time period LO is supposed to represent (take a guess, lol) But it was pretty obvious from the start that a large lump of the supposedly accurate modelling of systems that ED used to blurt on about was pure balderdash despite the vitriolic fanboi defenses of the time I bought LoMac when it first came out, played it for a week and realised that it was nowhere near finished and not at all what they said it was, now I am giving it another go with no illusions that it is any more than just a game about battles from the air, with a percentage of realism

The F-15, at the very least the Elmendorf eagles, had datalink from whenever the JTIDS project for them started. And that was probably pre-LOMAC era.

I would think so to GG, ED missed something important there by not put data link in to the F-15, Its nothing about balance I would say. The F-15 doesnt have EOS anyway. and active missiles would not help much better.

There's a reason why the F-15 has no EOS. It's radar is a /monster/, but that again is not modeled.

Anyway, even a useful awacs would help, if not a dlink.

A monster can be modeled that flies but then how about the rest of the elfs

that make it go in the air due to the fact that there is no ignition key in F-15s to take it /cross country joy ride/.

To put it on the scale of monster radar where would Mig-31 stand?

And to put it on the scale of politics and history where does that stand?

The shadows of soviet technological inventions is mostly on paper but it's a geat stuff.

That barely made any sense.

The MiG-31 radar features similar performance to the APG-63v1 with potentially better ECCM capability and of course, multi-tracking.