R-27ET right after R-27ER

The 36T passive infrared homing heat allows homing of missile to aircrafts, cruise missiles, Drones,...

Its has means to received data from radar or optical locator :)

 

Ok, if i launch a R-27ER and right after i launch a R-27ET, the ET should lock on the big heat emission of ER, correct ?

 

So it will follow the path of r-27ER, till it detect a bigger heat source (aircraft).

 

In that way we can launch missiles by pair and optimize PK.

 

Why this doesn't work in the game, the ET does not lock on the ER heat emission ?

from six month flying Flanker dont do that in some cases ET will hit your ER not all the time but it can and in any case ET is so visual so most of the time when we do ER + ET trick is when u shoot first ER force him to defend with like 3 sec or 4 shot ET and he will not notice that ( maybe ) it depend on your target skills .. another thing if u relay on ER to guide ET then u have to know that ET is shorter range than ER for long shots missile will drop out of energy

try this scenario shot ER crank to left or right to support the missile for like 3 sec and pull to the target shot your ET and go full defense ER will drop lock and he will know that ER is not dangerous anymore so he will gonna chase u with ET on his face ( Dont forget it depend on target skills )

Cheers

Sylkhan nobody is saying ET won’t lock ER, your ET can lock an ER in game, it’s just not useful. As GG said, you would have to break radar lock and trash your ER just to target it with R-27ET/EOS!!!

 

It’s an analog seeker, there is no data base, it doesn’t know how to switch, it’s an analog seeker that can literally only see one thing at a time, it sees its entire FOV as one thing, it literally can’t distingnuish between objects at all. It sees everything as one signature, and it’s completely dumb. In reality you are setting yourself up for failure, and in game you are setting yourself up for failure. Is it possible to lock ER with ET? Yes in game and real life, that’s why the doctrine is to fire ET first, as we have been trying to say

 

If you try it in game, I’m sure you will see how useless it is, and how much better it is to fire ET first. It will never switch targets and follow ER perrfectly and switch to target eventually, it’s not a smart seeker, it will stay locked on to the source it was locked into initially. As GG Tharos says, you have absolutely no guarantee that it will perfectly transition from being locked on ER to Target, it will never happen perfectly just because planes are hot, unless you’re pointed at 180 aspect that seeker isn’t even lookingin the same direction as the target, and that’s assuming you have the same altitude!!!!

 

It’s a complete waste of a missile is what I am saying, just fire with a lock on the target you want to kill like it’s designed to do

 

If you really want to try it no one can stop you, go ahead, but you will be wasting ETs, and you will only end up fighting the systems when they could help you.

 

There is no magic solution to take a R-27ET launch at the same range as ER, it will always be limited by the seeker, there is no way around that. The occasional mad dog launch works if you’re precise, but that’s when it’s not locked onto anything, locking onto a heat source of a plane in front of it is pretty easy if it’s not already locked on a hot R-27ER

 

Limitations of this seeker is exactly why modern missiles use FPA seekers

sorry my friend but u are wrong in that once u got a radar lock u can press EO button and u will have 2 locks at the same time its called ( EORL ) this mode exist u can shoot ER with radar guidance and shoot ET ... ER will be guided with RL and ET will be guided by EO both at the same time

i attached a Test Tacview file i shoot ER and ET with a separation to demonstrate EORL mode

Test.rar

I told you already what you can do. Work with LA override ON and try what I told you before. Try it always as first step in your combat. I recommend use the Su-33 to do that then you have enough R-27 to use.

Thx Pepin1234, will try

.. once u got a radar lock u can press EO button and u will have 2 locks at the same time its called ( EORL ) this mode exist u can shoot ER with radar guidance and shoot ET ... ER will be guided with RL and ET will be guided by EO both at the same time

Interresting, I didn't know that, will do some to see how it works.

I just see one of your post in the russian forum :

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4445625&postcount=9093

 

I like your sentence "and the missile should be perfectly capable of locking into a more powerful signal, like flares in the overall FOV."

 

Funny, isn't it :)

Yes, it's very funny how you don't understand at all what has been written. This is about using decoys BEFORE the missile is locked onto a target. This is why pre-emptive flaring is used IRL.

Thx Pepin1234, will try

 

 

Interresting, I didn't know that, will do some to see how it works.

but careful if he notched u ER will trashed u can try to lock him with Med PRF this mode supposed to be for non hot targets ( i dont know how much Flanker radar is reliable now i didn't fly Flanker since JF-17 and F-16 appeared )

PS : pay attention to GG Post and understand it cuz he is right if ER got trashed to Chaff ( i am assuming that your theory is right which is not i used Flanker a lot ... shot a hundred of ET and ER ) ET will trashed as will due to many elements ( Range / speed ... etc )

Yes, it's very funny how you don't understand at all what has been written. This is about using decoys BEFORE the missile is locked onto a target. This is why pre-emptive flaring is used IRL.

The missiles can be decoyed after launch as well. It is just more challenging when now you need to lure missile logic that separating new heat source is the proper target. Why you need to maneuver properly, manage engines correctly and get the flares look more like the original source.

It is not enough to just fly straight and pop flares when the missile keep tracking aircraft flying straight, as it easily ignores new sources flight trajectory changes.

This is why it is important where and how the flare dispensers are located, and to find that for design of missile CCM capabilities.

I have as well read in the past that Russian flares were very effective against western missiles because they were made purposely "dirty" so each had different spectrum scale by manufacturing. And as west made "pure, by the specs" flares it was easier to counter them.

http://wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/Number-3-4-2008/Koch.pdf

https://armadainternational.com/2019/07/air-the-burning-question/

As you know, our flares are just few second "roll a dice" effect that does the missile go there. And chaff is same as flare but just affecting radar missiles but with same principle. Changing these to more realistic would dramatically change the combat.

Thx Pepin1234, will try

 

 

Interresting, I didn't know that, will do some to see how it works.

See tracks you will see what I am talking about.

First track is made with override and I launch 2 missiles with slight different interception to ensure wider area for the IR seeker for a possible IR signal on the way. Notice I launch manually in interception and work well when you do well.

Second track you can see how delayed is the LA when you wait for missile IR seeker LA still on the pylon without override. You put yourself on risk too close the bandit. I loosed lock in this track because I did a mistake but anyway you can see the missile avoiding maneuvers.

R-27ET on the face-1.trk

R-27ET on the face-2.trk

Ok There we go again. Don't attack my post again please. I am trying to help community member to improve the combat skill in RU fighters. Thanks

As you can see in my previous post. The R-27ET ones launched with lockon, this missile will take a interception trajectory to the last bandit position at the launch momentum, that happen because the homing head is on this direction seeking IR signal (this current implementation is not clear well simulated because we are not receiving updated proportional navigation method after been lock-on by our aircraft sensors, as the official manufacture for international sales explain. Moreover, seem the developers don't simulate the transmitted information to the missile of the target speed and trajectory in vertical and horizontal flight of the target been a silly action the missile go first to the homing head position, with this action they are ignoring the type of target (air moving target) the type of missile (Air to Air missile) I will say you don't like use that poor and unreliable simulation, because in this case what you need is a missile straight trajectory from the rail to an intercept point ahead of the current reticle lock, taking account variation in altitude respect your current altitude and vertical speed with vertical/horizontal direction.

So what you need to do in this case is activate the Override, Point to a self calculate intercept point respect the reticle (look for bandit flight trajectory), Unlock and launch.

see track below:

R-27ET on the face-3.trk

So what you need to do in this case is activate the Override, Point to a self calculate intercept point respect the reticle (look for bandit flight trajectory), Unlock and launch.

 

see track below:

I understand what you are saying, but in your track the missile that you fire first, with lock, is the one that hits. The second one, after you unlock and override, doesn't track the target at all.

I understand what you are saying, but in your track the missile that you fire first, with lock, is the one that hits. The second one, after you unlock and override, doesn't track the target at all.

I didn’t told you doesn’t work like been lockon, I just told you than been unlocked and self calculating the interception is more saving energy for the missile. I hope you got me now.

Sorry that explanation was removed. But yes when you self calculate with unlocking then the final speed on impact is slight better.

PS: now I can’t tell you the speed difference between both situations I am out of the Sim now. Probably about 400km/h difference. That’s is a important difference

I didn’t told you doesn’t work like been lockon, I just told you than been unlocked and self calculating the interception is more saving energy for the missile. I hope you got me now.

 

Sorry that explanation was removed. But yes when you self calculate with unlocking then the final speed on impact is slight better.

 

PS: now I can’t tell you the speed difference between both situations I am out of the Sim now. Probably about 400km/h difference. That’s is a important difference

Yes, this is clear, the second missile overtakes the first. But this is, in part, because it is not turning... it is not tracking the target.

Can you really predict intercept yourself accurately enough to get hits at real long range with ET?

Yes, this is clear, the second missile overtakes the first. But this is, in part, because it is not turning... it is not tracking the target.

 

Can you really predict intercept yourself accurately enough to get hits at real long range with ET?

Didn’t you get a try? The last track show a nice splash. I hope you are getting the same result.

Sorry. I cant understand what you ask.

Пожалуйста, посмотрите на трек № 1. Вы можете найти его в посте № 32. Когда ракета запускается, она не выходит с направлением перехвата относительно траектории полета самолета противника. На самом деле, он отправляется в направлении позиции, которую он имеет в то время вражеского самолета. Не существует вычисления перехвата. Пожалуйста, посмотрите информацию, которую производитель имеет на веб-сайте. Пропорциональный расчет перехвата не работает в DCS для ракеты Р-27Т, Р-27ЭТ?

PS: Вы считаете, что метод перехвата, описанный на сайте производителя we, хорошо реализован для ракеты Р-27Т, Р-27ЭТ? http://ktrv.ru/production/voennaya_produktsiya/rakety_klassa_-vozdukh-vozdukh/rakety_r-27t1-_r-27et1.html

R-27ET does use PN. There's no reason to believe that it computes some sort of intercept since it's locked on the rail, exactly like an R-73.

Where do they say they're using interception calculation?

R-27ET does use PN.

I think he's trying to show that in DCS it doesn't. In his tracks he fires at the Hornet when it's not nose on to him. I looks like the 27ETs turn towards the target until they're nose on and, at least for the inital stage of the flight, appear to track in pure pursuit not PN.

R-27ET does use PN. There's no reason to believe that it computes some sort of intercept since it's locked on the rail, exactly like an R-73.

 

Where do they say they're using interception calculation?

I have in this forums years. You still don’t provide a single positive reason to improve Russian hardware in this forum. So why you ask? To reopen a debate about all the reasons you have for no improvements on Russian hardware. No thanks.

I think he's trying to show that in DCS it doesn't. In his tracks he fires at the Hornet when it's not nose on to him. I looks like the 27ETs turn towards the target until they're nose on and, at least for the inital stage of the flight, appear to track in pure pursuit not PN.

If that is so, really, then this would be APN parameters being transferred to the ET somehow ... and they really shouldn't be.

There are only two things that look like pure-pursuit in DCS for these missiles: HOJ which actually is pure pursuit, and not applicable here, and APN parameters which look like pure pursuit but aren't.

I have in this forums years. You still don’t provide a single positive reason to improve Russian hardware in this forum. So why you ask? To reopen a debate about all the reasons you have for no improvements on Russian hardware. No thanks.

This has everything to do with your imagination about what that sentence on the marketing page meant, and nothing to do with me and anything resembling preventing upgrades to Russian missiles.

You're not getting what you want because it's not the way this missile operates. Get over it.

I think he's trying to show that in DCS it doesn't. In his tracks he fires at the Hornet when it's not nose on to him. I looks like the 27ETs turn towards the target until they're nose on and, at least for the inital stage of the flight, appear to track in pure pursuit not PN.

Afaik this "pure pursuit" is a psuedo-datalink that really shouldnt be there, but it is anyway. Its telling the missile, at launch, where to look for the target, but it doesnt take into account where its moving, just where the target was at launch.

Not any pure pursuit in 27T.

The missile already got the proportional navigation information from the IRST or Radar. The proportional Navigation doesn’t happen at the moment the missile leave the rail on the track I commented to you. Track 1 on the Post 32 in this thread.

PS: should we make a video instead of the track?

I was only saying "appear" because I was trying to help interpret what I believed pepin was trying to say, not make any claims on the matter. If my observations from my watching the tracks are incorrect then so be it. I know the missile is old and its guidance isn't great, I have no stake in it and I'm happy if it's accurate as it is.

But if the missile is lock-on-before-launch (which we know it is) then it should be flying its internal PN intercept course from launch, not turning into the target then having to reverse its turn as it flies to get back onto a collision heading. I don't really understand what you mean by "APN parameters which look like pure pursuit but aren't".