By way of an update

VEAO Typhoon is cancelled for DCS. This is all we care about on DCS forums.

You mean you? Because you definitely do not speak for me or the community as a whole...

No offense meant, but their are a lot of reasons behind this rather unfortunate outcome, and one of it is the hostility towards VEAO in these kind of posts...

I am glad they still work on the Hawk and the P-40 in the end.

You mean you? Because you definitely do not speak for me or the community as a whole...

 

No offense meant, but their are a lot of reasons behind this rather unfortunate outcome, and one of it is the hostility towards VEAO in these kind of posts...

 

I am glad they still work on the Hawk and the P-40 in the end.

You are 100% right but remember that they are not completely faultless. Let's not idealize this situation too much ;)

P.S. I always supported them with nice words (maybe because I didn't buy the Hawk).

I wish them good luck anyway :)

You are 100% right but remember that they are not completely faultless. Let's not idealize this situation too much ;)

 

P.S. I always supported them with nice words (maybe because I didn't buy the Hawk).

 

I wish them good luck anyway :)

There are always to sides involved and yes they made some unfortunate decisions, that caused problems, later.

But I've never before seen or heard of the kind of personal hostility towards developers, that ultimately made one of the programmers quit his job, as he was personally attacked and threatened in PMs and mails.

I was heavily involved in beta testing the Hawk, and let's say, it wasn't "incompetence", "lack of time invested" or whatever the rumour mill brought up.

But enough of this, we won't change that anymore.

I personally hope we see the P-40 and Hawk in good shape in DCS and maybe at a later point we see more of them.

You mean you? Because you definitely do not speak for me or the community as a whole...

And neither do you. :)

I am fairly certain that majority of people who use DCS care more about DCS modules they can actually buy, than some super duper private military simulation that they will never see. If it even exists.

Anyhow, this is not directed at you and we're just beating a dead horse.

VEAO handled PR very badly in the past, took our money and didn't deliver.

While community hate for them might not be completely deserved, the simple fact that ED pulled the plug on them tell us everything we need.

And neither do you. :)

And I did not try... Just said what my experience was. Being a bit more involved.

(...) the simple fact that ED pulled the plug on them tell us everything we need.

Another misinterpretation. ED did not "pull the plug". VEAO did not sign the new contracts and decided to focus on the two projects furthest along for DCS and apply for subsequent modules only after DCS has moved to a stable development platform with DCS World 2.5.

I will not go into details, but there are reasons and issues that lead to this decisions.

I've flown a perfectly flying P-40F (minus weapons and polished cockpit textures) in DCS 2.0 two and a half years ago...

Ever wondered, why it isn't released, yet?

Hawk had working EFM, first beta implementation of dual cockpit, 90% systems working, including likely the most precise and detailed hydraulics model.

Then DCS World 2.x introduced changes to the API that ultimately made it easier to completely rework the systems and during that process integrate it into the new graphics engine, so they do this as well.

We can't help it, the situation is what it is, but there are always too sides to a coin.

There are always to sides involved and yes they made some unfortunate decisions, that caused problems, later.

 

But I've never before seen or heard of the kind of personal hostility towards developers, that ultimately made one of the programmers quit his job, as he was personally attacked and threatened in PMs and mails.

 

I was heavily involved in beta testing the Hawk, and let's say, it wasn't "incompetence", "lack of time invested" or whatever the rumour mill brought up.

 

But enough of this, we won't change that anymore.

I personally hope we see the P-40 and Hawk in good shape in DCS and maybe at a later point we see more of them.

Wow! I was completely unaware that people were carrying on with such deplorable behavior. Obviously, this would be unacceptable in any situation.

I do believe that there is a lot of frustration with VEAO and people feel like they have been slighted in some way. I personally have been frustrated with this module from the very first. It's such a cool plane but it has been plagued with so many issues that it just isn't any fun to fly. Every time I fire up DCS, one of my first thoughts is to hop in the Hawk and take a spin. But then I remember whatever issue is hindering at that particular time and I move on to another module feeling kind of frustrated. So much of the nastiness that we see is mostly frustration. Especially when we see other 3rd party developers solving their issues in a reasonably timely manner. It's just pure frustration.

I personally don't like downing the guys at VEAO. I give em credit when it's due for good progress. But when asked about how I feel or when I see that some new issue has arisen, I will not pretend that everything is great. I am guilty of steering people away from this module. But my reasoning for it is certainly not without merit.

I do believe that the other poster does speak for many of us. Maybe not everyone, but a vast majority. Although I have no particular feelings about those who work to put out the Hawk, I am dissatisfied with the module itself and see so little progress that I will not purchase any other modules from them at this point. Nor will I urge anyone else to do so. And for me it's nothing personal. I look at it like this: You buy a product from the store, get it home and it doesn't do what it's suppose to, or keeps developing problems,you tell your friends about it and don't buy that product any more. It's really as simple as that. I don't curse the people who made it, I just don't buy it and tell people that it's not worth buying. The simplest interpretation that many here will understand is someone purchasing a high point who already owns a Colt. Those of you who own one or the other completely understand the comparison.

Threatening behavior however is ridiculous and should not go unaddressed. The people who received these threats or whatever should know that the people sending them are cowards with few functioning brain cells to begin with. Although the threats may have been the straw on the camel's back, it makes sense that there was more at play there in the departure of the recipients. I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

None the less, if VEAO put out a good product that proved itself, this community (myself included) would be swift in forgetting past issues. The issue isn't VEAO for may of us, it's their product.

Just my two cents........

Hi Guys,

Re Typhoon - I am limited to what I can say about why the decision was taken but what I can say is this:

As part of the development for the public version of Typhoon we had to agree to and obtain the relevant security clearances for Chris and myself so that we could get some non public data for Typhoon to increase the fidelity and accuracy of the sim. Although the details of these document will obviously not be made public we did not want to produce a fake result, our goal was to have all the relevant math and work go on behind the scenes and then produce the result for you the user to make use of/enjoy.

When some of our contracts expired we were in the process of trying to agree what information we can supply to ED, to enable them to carry out the absolutely necessary quality checks of any module, and what we have to keep internal under our classification agreement.

These discussions were long and detailed.

When the option was presented to seek renewal for Typhoon this played a large part in our decision that we would not be seeking a renewal for the Typhoon for DCS, despite the best of intentions from everyone concerned sometimes things are just insurmountable.

Pman

Guys, lets chill a little, this thread is for VEAO updates, not discussion of anything else.

Sorry Sith........we were sending at the same time. Won't happen again.

I sure hope we see 2.5 soon, I have always had a special place in my heart for the P-40 and recently got to fly a P-40E, best wishes VEAO I cant wait to fly a Tomahawk in DCS!

Hi Guys,

 

Re Typhoon - I am limited to what I can say about why the decision was taken but what I can say is this:

 

As part of the development for the public version of Typhoon we had to agree to and obtain the relevant security clearances for Chris and myself so that we could get some non public data for Typhoon to increase the fidelity and accuracy of the sim. Although the details of these document will obviously not be made public we did not want to produce a fake result, our goal was to have all the relevant math and work go on behind the scenes and then produce the result for you the user to make use of/enjoy.

 

When some of our contracts expired we were in the process of trying to agree what information we can supply to ED, to enable them to carry out the absolutely necessary quality checks of any module, and what we have to keep internal under our classification agreement.

 

These discussions were long and detailed.

 

When the option was presented to seek renewal for Typhoon this played a large part in our decision that we would not be seeking a renewal for the Typhoon for DCS, despite the best of intentions from everyone concerned sometimes things are just insurmountable.

 

Pman

Thanks, this definately made things more clear and helped me to understand what actually happened. I hope this will put an end to some wild speculations.

Yeah, thanks to the community for the great support and heads up for VEAO over the first 3 years and managing to make one of their developers quit.

 

By the way, they still do the Typhoon, just not for the civil market (DCS specifically).

Are you really blaming the community for that? It's VEAO fault, nothing more. VEAO is responsible for their decisions, not community. If they have done a poor work all these years, it's their fault, not yours, not our fault, not ED's fault, not community's fault.

I already knew the result, and I am not surprised, just like the entire community. ;)

Are you really blaming the community for that? It's VEAO fault, nothing more. VEAO is responsible for their decisions, not community. If they have done a poor work all these years, it's their fault, not yours, not our fault, not ED's fault, not community's fault.

 

I already knew the result, and I am not surprised, just like the entire community. ;)

Nothing more nothing less.

Are you really blaming the community for that? It's VEAO fault, nothing more. VEAO is responsible for their decisions, not community. If they have done a poor work all these years, it's their fault, not yours, not our fault, not ED's fault, not community's fault.

 

I already knew the result, and I am not surprised, just like the entire community. ;)

Enough said.

Because Luck and Society are statistically equal for everyone we usually remove them from causes... like when someone is judged for his felonies... entourage and misfortune are not taken into account.

This translates also in common sense as don't blame the others for the outcome of your own work.

Because Luck and Society are statistically equal for everyone we usually remove them from causes... like when someone is judged for his felonies... entourage and misfortune are not taken into account.

That is the US court system. In Europe, especially Germany, that is a big part of judging, the reason behind a crime, as our goal is to re-integrate people into society and re-socialise them.

Though the outcome is sometimes debatable, the reason behind it is good and sound.

For example we do not drag a 7 Year old child to court for "murder", because it had a mishap with a gun lying around. That is we take maturity, circumstances etc. into account before destroying someone's life to get a cheap laborer.

That is what we call common sense over here...

But we won't change it back anyway.

As Pman said the major reason for cancelling the Typhoon seems to be the legal/secrecy stuff, and though this may change in the years to come, they will let us know in time, I'm sure about that.

Ive always liked VEAO, they started off with a Big Bang and telling us they would be making all our wildest dreams come true, then came the struck of reality and they realised that competition was fierce in quality and ED improvements forced them to keep up, i suppose they realised the cost-to-revenue had fallen to the floor. So they adopted a lower profile and reasonable objectives (which i think is perfectly fair, when someone realises their mistakes and rectifies) now i think we should wait for their 2 projects which are still alive and if we the customers are happy then they might feel strong again to continue with new projects.

Wish them luck anyway, they tried.

I still have a hope they will come back to Tiffy in the future :)

I still have a hope they will come back to Tiffy in the future :)

You sir are an optimist ! :D

You sir are an optimist ! :D

Live is easier that way Sir! :D

S!

We just need to wait for the P40.

VEAO's DCS future hangs off it.

To me it looks like a lot of factors combined with a heap of bad luck.

 

Enough said.

Luck has nothing to do with it. 2.5 is coming hard and fast. I hope VEAO gets its act together and has the P40 ready because after that merge, there will be no more excuses. Being patient and giving VEAO a chance has nothing to do with it either because many customers have been doing that, LITERALLY, for years now. They may be nice people, but as far as a company developing DCS products, their reputation and actual product release record shares one commonality with the HOOVER VACUUM Co. They both Suck! Nuff Said!

Blade<><

We just need to wait for the P40.

 

VEAO's DCS future hangs off it.

The P40 is released.....Just not for DCS

Canning Tiffy is about the most logical thing I've heard in these forums for a while. If DCS is about accuracy and the plane is at least in some ways operational and requiring clearance for additional detail, then holding an NDA for a RF company and UK clearance on data stacked in the middle is absolutely out of the question and in direct competition. It's pretty much punching a hole through your firewall. It's also very understandable. As much as politics shouldn't be discussed because of the competing nature of the developers homeland versus the nationalities of the various consumers, it's quite obvious this occurs in different areas also, for example ED's own difficulties with certain Russian airframes. It's very much a problem.

There were only ever two outcomes of a Tiffy: A substandard model lacking the detailed operational level information to back it up, OR the British government releasing operational data to a foreign national of interest. As a DV cleared Brit I'm committed to our national security and am happy it got binned, it wasn't realistic. There should just be no more conversation on this.

Please finish the Hawk though, it's got such a good potential for a revenue stream if it's done right.