Help! CCIP and 82 30DB2

I'm trying to learn proper CCIP technique, but failing badly. I'm using the 82 30DB2 profile from the 76th vFS Battle Book.

The best video I've found on the technique is a real world example:

The main problem I have is understanding the approach to the target and visual clues before the attack itself. I can't seem to position myself properly.

I have searched Youtube for an example of the above technique using DCS without success, and the other sources I've found are very difficult to follow.

Any help would be appreciated.

It's not really practical outside of the demonstration but you may want to calculate and even layout ground marks to realize the run in until you develop more practical cues. The position in the sky to begin the turn and dive attack can be calculated from the desired result and working backward.

The natural point to begin reverse engineering the attack entry is the point of release. However it is conceptually easier instead to consider the aim off point (AOP). Imagine the ideal attack but after release the airplane continues straight until it collides with the ground instead of recovering. This is the AOP and is located one aim off distance (AOD) beyond the target along the attack axis. AOD is a calculated parameter that should be supplied with the printed delivery profile.

If the airplane was already pointed at the AOP at the beginning of the attack, the trigonometry would be very simple. In the case of a 30 degree dive the distance from the AOP is the height times the cotangent of 30° (1.73). An approach beginning at 10,000' would begin 17,300' away. Since the AOP is beyond the target by the AOD, subtracting AOD from this gives the distance to target.

Life is not so simple though. For all sorts of reasons it is desirable to make a turn such that the exit of this turn is a 30° dive toward the AOP. With some further calculation the point of beginning the turn can be found which terminates in a straight line which has the desired dive angle and intersects the AOP. Note that turns inclined to the horizontal take up less two-dimensional room than level turns.

After all this calculation there is some known distance for a track parallel to the target. When on this track at the approach altitude and at the correct longitudinal position (about one turn radius prior) the descending turn is commenced. By the completion of this turn the airplane is along the straight path toward the AOP along the desired dive angle. Visual references can be understood by observation of the target relative position when at this calculated turn entry point.

There are general traits of the visual picture when commencing the attack. First the target will appear at least as far below the horizon as the dive angle. This can be counted downward from the horizon on the canopy, upward from the canopy rail, or gauged by banking to a known value the airplane and envisioning which way the wing is pointed. The target will appear slightly forward of the 3/9 line for attacks which have a 90 degree turn. This is a function of the distance to target and the radius of turn.

Execution of the attack is flying what is judged to be the correct lateral parallel offset until the visual cues are satisfied. The target is kept in sight throughout the maneuver with the nose of the airplane being pulled to the pilot's line of sight. Usually 80 plus dive angle is used as bank for the initial turn of planned loading. The top-center of the HUD is used for airplane attitude reference against AOP for rollout until TVV stabilizes. TVV against pitch ladder is compared for desired dive angle. Airplane is rolled to put target along PBIL. Straight line flight is continued until coincides with target or MRA.

The canopy rail and dust plugs in the canopy bow make handy references for dive angles...

In rough terms:

- On your canopy rail = 45° Dive

- One dust plug up = 30° Dive

- Two dust plugs up = 20° Dive

- Three dust plugs = 10° Dive

The above is applicable so long as your altitude and offset are correct for the desired delivery profile.

The canopy rail and dust plugs in the canopy bow make handy references for dive angles...

Can someone post a picture indicating the canopy reference points? I keep hearing about the "canopy bow" but I'm not sure what it refers to.

The circles up each side...

I'm trying to put a mental picture to what I'm doing.

With 82 30DB2 in mind:

Base Altitude is 5.1, or 5,100 feet AGL, Airspeed is 280 IAS.

Base Range is 1.2, or 1.2 miles from the target.

At Base Range I pull 5 degrees nose up, and then roll into the attack.

Track Altitude is 3.6, or 3,600 feet AGL, which is the point at which the desired dive angle should be achieved, and the target should be under the PBIL and the Pipper should begin tracking up to the target.

Release Altitude is 2.8, or 2,800 feet AGL.

Aim-off distance is 0.2. I understand I have to be established on that at Track Altitude. I'm then pointed at the Aim-off point, until I can set Track reference, which in the video example would be the DRC.

I don't understand what an Aim-off distance of 0.2 is and what that looks like. 0.2 of a mile? I'm not sure how to gauge that.

The canopy cues would be Roll-in Target Placement? So you'd start the attack with this profile when the target was level with the bottom dust plug?

I've attached a picture I think was posted by "Eddie" in a much earlier thread on the subject. I assume the red lines indicate the dust plugs and the yellow line the position of the target at the start of the attack?

Correct...

The red lines are 45, 30, 20 and 10 bottom to top and the yellow line denotes where the target should be when you tip in.

and yes, AOD means that your actual longitudinal axis it pointing .2 miles beyond the target and nailing that comes with practice. Took me a while to figure out that you don’t want or need to put your axis directly on the target to get the proper dive angle and release.

It depends on your airplane's equipment if dive angle references airplane attitude or airplane velocity. In computed bombing the TVV (flight path) is the thing at -30 degrees. Your longitudinal axis is pointed somewhere else due to some positive AOA. In older planes without VV display the dive reference is attitude and the actual flight path is slightly steeper. In A-10C computed delivery AOP is the point your airplane is traveling toward (TVV) and not pointed toward (ZSL).

If you have trouble seeing AOD either put an object in the editor there (as per real practice) or find a reference via IAA and looking from the target up that angle. Otherwise you can use another reference like IHP which should solve the TVV placement naturally. The backup depressible pipper is excellent for this. Using the DRC also makes things a lot easier.

I don't know if that base range is slant, two dimensional or one dimensional. It's a range so it shouldn't be slant and I guess the difference between the track separation and the hypotenuse since you're turning slightly before 90 due to turn radius is quite small.

ITP (IAA + dive angle) determines the vertical RTP component. So 6 + 30 = 36 degrees. I.e. "red lines".

Yellow line: Yes. The other direction is less critical but one might calculate the slant range from the base track to the attack axis, radius of turn, and do the trig. E.g. 1.46nm slant, 0.5nm turn radius, 19 degrees before the square turn.

I put up a video of my best attempt so far. I'm too slow at the start and I think that affects the climb. I probably also reduced power in an attempt to slow things down a bit. The timing of the roll out is all over the place, and I tried to force the DRC onto the target, something I realised was a mistake as soon as I started to do it. I didn't even look for the AOD, I was too busy trying to line up on the target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv-NDD_wY1k

I'll post another vide when I have something worthy of approval as proper technique. ;)

Not the worst effort I’ve ever seen...

Keep at it!

That's actually pretty good. :thumbup:

A few ideas about the vid:

Don't pull quite as hard. You were riding the chopped tone at 4 g. Pull a little less, try to hit the steady tone, and the jet will fly a lot smoother during the tip-in.

Just try to place the lift vector on target (place the target on the canopy centerline) during the tip-in. You were initially overbanking a bit; but that may also have been a consequence of the very hard pull and the aircraft being very hard to control in that moment.

I'm not sure if the 5° pitch up at the start is actually part of the tip-in maneuver. I never fly that (but that could mean I'm doing it wrong myself ;)).

All things considered, I'd say you're 85% there already, now it's just practice and repetition. :thumbup:

I'm not sure how universal this "pop" of pitch up before roll in is as far as technique but it seems to work. I'd like to know more about it.

Pull was too aggressive, chopped tone is going to hurt speed, cause buffeting, and make smooth control impossible. The fine control needed to address the other issues can't happen until the pull is reduced to at most peak performance solid tone. Paradoxically more throttle and higher speed make keeping within AOA limits easier.

Track height looks good, slightly low but that should go away with a smooth solid-tone full throttle roll in. Dive angle was about 25. The target was at 30 instead. So to get that extra 5 degrees you'd have to be primarily be closer and secondarily lose less height in the turn. The track offset doesn't need to be exact as there is lots of adjustment possibility during the turn.

During roll in put the turn plane through the AOP, above the target as was seen here. You know the IAA so even if AOD is hard to judge you can at least estimate what 5-6 degrees looks like since it's one rung and a bit on the pitch ladder. By the very end of turn it blended to the AOP. It's hard to say if it was intentional or just difficult control from overpulling.

It's good in other respects.

We don’t pitch up 5° before rolling in:

I’d roll in a hair sooner and make sure it’s an unloaded roll such that your velocity vector is on the target before you pull the nose down.

I have only seen the real world example in my first post, and I have to presume there's a good reason for the initial nose up pitch. It would be useful to have input from an actual A10 pilot.

I posted another practise video. I think I'm a little too close initially, but I think aircraft roll may make that look a little worse than it is. I suspect that's why the dive angle is 35 degrees. I also straighten out a fraction early, but I'm at least mostly getting a solid tone.

I placed smoke at what I think is 0.2 miles from the target. How useful is the gun cross for measuring AOD? That might be a quick and easy reference.

It took a while for me to realise I was only getting a single drop from stations 5 and 7. After switching to 3 and 9 I'm getting pairs. I don't know why stations are inverse white. I usually have that on the right station, though sometimes they're both green. Switches are set to armed, and as you can see, bombs come off the aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjegjU7J6WQ

I'll add few points that might help.

1. Re the 5° pitch up. Not necessary. If you don't understand the reasons for doing/not doing something you see in a HUD tape or elsewhere, best not to do it.

2. The 12x M82 loadout isn't going to be helping here, the jet is heavy and most importantly very draggy. While it might give you more runs at the target, this will hinder performance and give you a false sense of aircraft handling and therefore spoil your muscle memory etc. Either keep it to a 4x or 6x M82 load, or use 6x/12x BDU-33.

3. For a 90° offset, bank angle rule of thumb is 80° + desired dive angle (3-4G pull). i.e. for a 30° DB, you want 110° of bank. You're over-banking slightly and pulling your lift vector, and therefore, TVV in front of the target, that sets you up for a bad run from the start as you'll be low/shallow.

4. Set the depressible pipper to -34 mils. This gives a good reference for where your TVV will end up on roll out.

5. As pointed out already, your over pulling slightly and hitting the chopped tone which isn't helping you keep it smooth. I'd recommend doing some maneuvers to practice holding the solid tone (with a variety of payloads) to get used to where your stick pull is. This is one of those things that's quite a bit harder with most sticks compared to reality so it takes some practice.

6. Try starting a little higher with more of an offset distance to give yourself a 5 second tracking time rather than 3, at least to start with. Those extra 2 seconds help you get your sight picture built up, and get you used to making the corrections after roll out.

7. Be a bit more aggressive when doing the corrections after roll out, you need to get them done quickly or you'll press too close to the target. If you can't make enough of a correction, abort the run. You'll gain more by aborting and trying again than by pressing from a bad roll-in.

8. Be more a bit aggressive with the roll (max lateral stick, coordinated with rudder).

It took a while for me to realise I was only getting a single drop from stations 5 and 7.

That is correct. Stations 5 and 7 never drop in pairs because proper spacing between the bombs can't be guaranteed - you wouldn't want them to collide right under your jet. ;)

After switching to 3 and 9 I'm getting pairs. I don't know why stations are inverse white.

That is indeed weird. According to the manual, that should only ever happen when Master Arm is safe, but it is clearly armed in your video. Unless I'm missing something, that looks like a bug to me.

Recommend you turn gun cross occultation off or safe the gun if you aren't going to need it. You need the TVV visible. The computed gun cross is useless for measurement as it is too variable. There are a lot of symbols on your HUD and referencing too many or the wrong ones is as bad as not referencing the right ones.

One thing that can help is to bind a joystick button to pause the sim like trigger. At any stage of the attack you can pause, take a breath, and look at the picture calmly to evaluate what's good or bad about it. The altitude radar floor, baro floor, and baro ceiling alerts can be helpful too. Use the accelerometer record needs and reset after each pass to see what G you pulled. You probably want 3-4g pull in which at 280 KCAS shouldn't even make a beep. Oh yeah, 5/7 can't do pair releases.

I did notice battle book says expect release 325 knots but also throttles max which gives me 345 knots by release.

Base altitude is good. Examine the video 0:12-0:14 as the target & AOP can be seen relative to TVV. Desired is AOP, TVV, and -30 pitch rung to all coincide throughout the turn in. The TVV can be seen too low causing the airplane to sink relative to the desired turn plane and the AOP rise toward the horizon. Imagine the pitch ladder -30 line extended completely around the airplane. The AOP should lie on this cone throughout.

At track altitude (8.5) pause and look again. Where is the TVV? Where is AOP? Where is the target? TVV and AOP are -29, target is -33.5. Desired is -30 and -36 respectively. The dive angle is defined by where the TVV is on the pitch ladder.

Imagine the HUD pitch ladder only had two rungs, one at -30 and one at -36. Ideally the -36 degree line will slide through the target and -30 degree line through the AOP at track altitude. Since you have a tendency to be too shallow your next attempt should error on being too steep. Pretend that -31 and -37 are just fine but -29 and -35 are unforgivable.

Release altitude should have been 2800AGL/7700MSL instead is 450' lower which is busting MRA. This is a direct consequence of shallow dive and shallow target placement at track altitude. Notice that G at release is 1.1 not correct (cosine 30° ~0.9). The nose has non-zero pitch rate during the release called a banana pass. Consider adding some nose down trim before the roll in.

I this this is much closer. I'm about 400 feet low, but I think that's because of the initial pull. I'm using the 34 mil depressible pipper to line up with the AOD during the pull. Excuse the climb at the end. I was busy looking at the pitch ladder.

https://youtu.be/c6c7BUXBAIM?t=264

You can go back to the start to see the process I'm following.

I seem to be collecting bug reports. False inverse video, BDU-33's often not emitting smoke, and replay starting in accelerated time and sometimes quitting early.

I think there's something wrong with your AOD. It should be ~6 degrees IAA which is 6235-4955 = 1280'. Notice on wings level your DTOF cue is down there at -36 and your target is at -35. The farm circles I'm using this is a whole radius of the green grass. Angle between AOP and target should start at 6 degrees and continue to get bigger. Maybe set pipper position at 178 mil IHP to give a feeling of where the target should be at track alt.

The low release and a slight banana pass are the only real things.

Re: small particulars. Battle book has some assumptions that we might not be following. Probably these are for sea level and things get funny with this +3000' shift in height. There would be adjustments for temp, pressure, wind, altitude, etc. It makes a small difference but this profile is for 2 at 75' interval, not a pair. The 325 comes for me by throttles idle before tracking. If I remain entry speed throttles or max I release much faster.

You're probably right about the AOD, Frederf. I was estimating smoke placement and I think I read it wrong. I do wish we had a ruler tool to mark out the distance on the ground. I've adjusted for the next attempt.

What does HOT stand for? Height of target?

There's a ME ruler, middle mouse and drag.

HOT, height over target maybe? I'd stand a better chance if I knew the context. I think that's a DSMS setting for flares and smoke/illumination rockets.

I was thinking in terms of this thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=118975

what is HOT elevation, when/how would I use it, and is it better than DTS for CCIP

I just want to confirm I understand HOT altitude and how to set it with the laser, because I think I misunderstood it previously:

When toggled in NAV, GUNS, CCIP, and CCRP modes, the switch will cause target elevation to flash on the HUD display to indicate elevation can be changed

When in CCIP mode, you press the data rocker switch, and lase the target while the altitude is flashing? Or do I have that completely wrong?

Nothing to do with the TGP. You just adjust the elevation to the target elevation with the rocker.

Actually I don't know how to set it directly from laser rangefinder automatically if that's even a thing (I'll have to try it). Instead I would lase the desired point and just read the elevation figure from the TGP format and enter that number from my brain.

DTSAS is usually fine especially in wide flat areas. In other areas the DTSAS polygonal surface is not dense enough resolution to conform suitably to the terrain contour. Sure, exact elevation is better than a little off but it rarely matters too much.

I still think your AOD is too small. 6076'/nm x 0.2nm = 1215.2'. And remember that AOD on the chart is rounded to the nearest tenth so it could be anywhere between 0.15 to 0.25nm and still be "point two miles"; that's anywhere inside 911 to 1428'. Undoubtedly the AOD calculation to write the chart came in feet which was then rounded to miles with a significant loss of precision.

My AOD came from subtracting the 30 degree dive point and the 36 degree LOS to target from track height. I feel that's more precise without having more of the math behind the creation of the profile chart.