Where to learn basic flight manouvre?

Whenever I'm reading through some of the guide posts and just discussion post in general here, I have always seen terms like BFM and manouvre names mentioned casually (split-s, Immelman turn). I think they are very essential before one even moves to learning how to work with weapons.

The question is, where do you learn to perform the basic manouvres like that? I myself still have some trouble doing coordinated turns. I just don't get how do you make a complete turn with the balls centered without looking at it constantly, for example when you are focusing on chasing the enemy.

I only have Logitech 3DPro joystick with twist capability for rudder input. When flying Su-27, I find I always slip and skid all over the place when trying to turn even though I have adjusted the sensitivity accordingly that I need to always focus on the attitude horizon every second or so to make sure it flies correctly. It would be a great help if you guys can help me with the basics like this.

Thank You

P.S: It always feel like you are fighting with the plane instead of flying it..

well, actually learning them would be a nice job for the trainers, alas. None of them have a real BFM training campaign.

I notice you mention your rudders, maneuvres and an Su-27. You generally don't want to use the rudders much, if at all, when doing maneuvres in a fast mover like that. It's much more preferred to instead roll into your turn, and then use the powerful elevators to actually actuate the turn. So roll sideways, then pull up.

If you are looking into learning BFM, I honestly don't think the wikipedia page about it is a bad place to start. It's obviously not the best source for learning but it will help create some understanding on how and why. The link I will give you takes you straight to a list of maneuvres but do scroll up a bit to read on the principles of BFM as well. It's not just a matter of getting behind a bad guy, you must take energy into consideration as well. Energy is altitude and speed. You can dive to convert altitude into speed and you can climb to turn speed into altitude. This is why a split-S, Immelmann turn or chandelle turn is typically better than a flat turn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#Maneuvers

you could use a tool like Tacview to analyze your own flights.

well, actually learning them would be a nice job for the trainers, alas. None of them have a real BFM training campaign.

 

I notice you mention your rudders, maneuvres and an Su-27. You generally don't want to use the rudders much, if at all, when doing maneuvres in a fast mover like that. It's much more preferred to instead roll into your turn, and then use the powerful elevators to actually actuate the turn. So roll sideways, then pull up.

 

If you are looking into learning BFM, I honestly don't think the wikipedia page about it is a bad place to start. It's obviously not the best source for learning but it will help create some understanding on how and why. The link I will give you takes you straight to a list of maneuvres but do scroll up a bit to read on the principles of BFM as well. It's not just a matter of getting behind a bad guy, you must take energy into consideration as well. Energy is altitude and speed. You can dive to convert altitude into speed and you can climb to turn speed into altitude. This is why a split-S, Immelmann turn or chandelle turn is typically better than a flat turn.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#Maneuvers

 

you could use a tool like Tacview to analyze your own flights.

Thanks I'm just a bit confused with a rudder usage. I'm definitely not a trained pilot. I also noticed that I can lose altitude when turning so I also pitch up to counteract the aircraft response. The thing is I just can't do it without looking at the instrument, coordinating the rudder, elevator and aileron at the same time. So it's okay then in this case to let the aircraft slip and just use the elevator to kick you up?

I went to the page you linked. I think it's a good resource overall. But I think it's really challenging to apply some of the concept into practices. Some of them should be possible, and I think I'll try it. I just wish I can follow/mimic someone's flight path closely.

Him:

Him:

I'm still puzzled how he manages to keep the turn coordinated without looking at the instrument. (I watched the barrel roll video of his in P-51D and I noticed the ball stays almost constant throughout the time while he's mainly looking to the side) Is it something you get after many many practices?

Thanks I'm just a bit confused with a rudder usage. I'm definitely not a trained pilot. I also noticed that I can lose altitude when turning so I also pitch up to counteract the aircraft response. The thing is I just can't do it without looking at the instrument, coordinating the rudder, elevator and aileron at the same time. So it's okay then in this case to let the aircraft slip and just use the elevator to kick you up?

 

I went to the page you linked. I think it's a good resource overall. But I think it's really challenging to apply some of the concept into practices. Some of them should be possible, and I think I'll try it. I just wish I can follow/mimic someone's flight path closely.

You will need to add aft stick as you describe. With practice you'll need to refer to instruments less as you get a feel for it (both for rudder use and back pressure).

Hopefully this won't be complicating things too much at this stage, but while the stick is out of centre (left/right) you also often (depending on aircraft) need to apply additional rudder in the same direction as the aircraft will want to yaw in the opposite direction of roll. This is called adverse yaw.

You will need to add aft stick as you describe. With practice you'll need to refer to instruments less as you get a feel for it (both for rudder use and back pressure).

 

Hopefully this won't be complicating things too much at this stage, but while the stick is out of centre (left/right) you also often (depending on aircraft) need to apply additional rudder in the same direction as the aircraft will want to yaw in the opposite direction of roll. This is called adverse yaw.

Yes the last part is actually what I'm trying to do, turning the rudder to the same direction of the bank, but I just can't apply the right amount at the right time without looking at the attitude indicator. Moreover it feels the speed is also quite a factor in that.

Properly coordinating turns in a video game is basically impossible. In a real aircraft, you do it by feel (you can feel it sideslipping), not by looking at the balls. In a game, all you have are those balls. I completely ignore it unless I can visibly see myself flying sideways. It's also largely a non-issue in jet aircraft, it really only applies to props and choppers unless you're running with an engine out on a multi-engined aircraft or with an asymmetric loadout. Think of it as sort of like trying to drive a car perfectly down the center of its lane. Trying to do so is extremely unnatural and actually fairly reckless as it requires far too much attention. You're much better off simply going with the flow of things instead of trying to fight it.

As for maneuver names, wikipedia is your friend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

It isn't a complete list and you'll need to check the links on that list for full descriptions, but most are fairly simple. The most fundamental terms to know for basic fighter maneuvering (BFM) are:

1) loop

2) split-s

3) immelmann

4) barrel roll

5) scissors (flat or rolling)

6) Yo-yo (high or low)

7) Pursuit (lead, lag or pure)

Yes the last part is actually what I'm trying to do, turning the rudder to the same direction of the bank, but I just can't apply the right amount at the right time without looking at the attitude indicator. Moreover it feels the speed is also quite a factor in that.

You can do it by looking out of the window. The nose should progressively start to move across the horizon as you go into a turn. If it hesitates or goes in the wrong direction you didn't use enough rudder. If it swings into the turn quickly and then slows down, you used too much.

In a real aircraft, you do it by feel (you can feel it sideslipping), not by looking at the balls.

Not sure I agree with that. I certainly don't remember ever being able to feel being uncoordinated when flying, unless it's extreme (I'm deliberately putting the aircraft into a slip).

If it isn't strong enough to feel (or see when looking out the window) then it isn't strong enough to worry about imho.

If it isn't strong enough to feel (or see when looking out the window) then it isn't strong enough to worry about imho.

That's definately not true. Take a look at a picture of a slip indicator. The curve in the glass tube is only a few degrees; the load factor will only need to move off the centre slightly to peg the ball one way or another.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1907371&highlight=faa+handbook#post1907371

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128072&page=7

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140143

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=115219

Great link Bucic:thumbup: you can give this a read(i've read it a few times over my sim fly'n career) http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1448139806&sr=1-12&keywords=robert+shaw :pilotfly::thumbup: try this as well :thumbup::pilotfly::joystick::D [ame]

The MiG-21 flight manual has some very nice descriptions of tactics and maneuvers.

...

 

I only have Logitech 3DPro joystick with twist capability for rudder input. When flying Su-27, I find I always slip and skid all over the place when trying to turn even though I have adjusted the sensitivity accordingly that I need to always focus on the attitude horizon every second or so to make sure it flies correctly...It always feel like you are fighting with the plane instead of flying it..

My suggestion would be to learn to walk before you try to run. If you're in the Su-27, take off and adjust your throttles to settle on your desired airspeed. Trim the aircraft for that airspeed. Again, trim the aircraft for that airspeed. Now, looking at the HUD, using only the ailerons, bank to the first tic mark. Glance down at the VVI. Pull back gently on the stick until you are maintaining level flight. Back to the HUD. Make sure you're on the tic mark. Check your airspeed. Adjust your throttle to maintain your entry airspeed throughout. Once you have those things in equilibrium, gently press your rudder pedal until the ball is centered. (You might find that you have to put some curve in your rudder setting in Options, if you haven't already.) Keep your eyes moving from datum to datum and maintain the level turn with everything in equilibrium.

Now, return to straight and level flight. Bank again but in the other direction. Practice until you can do it smoothly.

Next, bank smoothly to the first tic mark and while maintaining a level turn, steepen the turn to the 2nd tic mark. Make adjustments until you are maintaining a level turn without slipping. Repeat in the other direction. Repeat and repeat again until you can do it smoothly.

Next, practice going directly to the 2nd tic mark. Etc etc. What you will discover, if you haven't already, is what flight is all about and what you need to do to have the aircraft behave the way you want it to. But do it in small steps.

Once you have level turns under your belt, you can start to play with climbing and descending turns and all the other fancy stuff. :)

Thanks for your input guys. I've tried to apply the principle you explained in game, culminating into this simple crosswind approach, that I hope you guys can review what should I improve.

I have to say this bird really handles well despite my clumsy controlling. I just like how the engines are so responsive when you need it the most.

P.S: How do you make a good U turn such that you will exactly be lined up with the runway? I mean, how do yo adjust your turn radius exactly?

sukhoi crosswind.trk

For those interested in learning combat manoeuvres and BFM.

There is a pretty good guide that teaches the basics although more focused on WW 2 combat called

In Pursuit - A Pilot's Guide To Online Air Combat

Google the name for a free PDF that can be downloaded.

The other guide that I can recommend is The Art of the Kill - Pete Bonnani which is an excellent read on BFM focused on modern air combat.

You can obtain a copy of this simply by purchasing the Falcon Flight Sim collection from Good Old Games. This collection also includes Falcon 4 which will also allow you to use the excellent BMS 4.33 mod. that totally transforms the sim to modern standards.

Link to Good Old Games

https://www.gog.com/

Falcon 4 BMS 4.33 Video

[ame]

Falcon 4 BMS 4.33 can be downloaded from Benchmark Sims

http://www.bmsforum.org/forum/content.php

Hope this helps anyone

Where to learn basic flight manouvre?

The art of the kill is beautiful and talks a lot about BFM; they even reference BFM.

[ame]

"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down."- General Chuck Yeager, USAF, describing his first confrontation with a Me262.

JayRac3r/Lt_Mav YouTube Channel

I mean, how do yo adjust your turn radius exactly?

You adjust turn radius by adjusting bank angle. Lower bank angle = larger radius.

My suggestion would be to learn to walk before you try to run. If you're in the Su-27, take off and adjust your throttles to settle on your desired airspeed. Trim the aircraft for that airspeed. Again, trim the aircraft for that airspeed. Now, looking at the HUD, using only the ailerons, bank to the first tic mark. Glance down at the VVI. Pull back gently on the stick until you are maintaining level flight. Back to the HUD. Make sure you're on the tic mark. Check your airspeed. Adjust your throttle to maintain your entry airspeed throughout. Once you have those things in equilibrium, gently press your rudder pedal until the ball is centered. (You might find that you have to put some curve in your rudder setting in Options, if you haven't already.) Keep your eyes moving from datum to datum and maintain the level turn with everything in equilibrium.

 

Now, return to straight and level flight. Bank again but in the other direction. Practice until you can do it smoothly.

 

Next, bank smoothly to the first tic mark and while maintaining a level turn, steepen the turn to the 2nd tic mark. Make adjustments until you are maintaining a level turn without slipping. Repeat in the other direction. Repeat and repeat again until you can do it smoothly.

 

Next, practice going directly to the 2nd tic mark. Etc etc. What you will discover, if you haven't already, is what flight is all about and what you need to do to have the aircraft behave the way you want it to. But do it in small steps.

 

Once you have level turns under your belt, you can start to play with climbing and descending turns and all the other fancy stuff. :)

As always, Ironhand, you're very helpful and easy to understand. I have to mention it because I appreciate your patience with all of us "noobs" and the straightforward and concise way you provide information. Cheers.

As always, Ironhand, you're very helpful and easy to understand. I have to mention it because I appreciate your patience with all of us "noobs" and the straightforward and concise way you provide information. Cheers.

:) Thanks.

well, actually learning them would be a nice job for the trainers, alas. None of them have a real BFM training campaign.

...and that is why I haven't purchased either L39 or Hawk yet, imho BFM is the No.1 essential feature for those modules and also a sensible scenario for NTTR. I'd also imagine there must be some ground based training for carrier landings or do pilots really get thrown in at the deep end if you pardon the pun?

try to find this maual: Fighter Combat - Tactics and Maneuvering

Hello, this might have been posted before, it's a great watch (6 parts):

Art of the Kill basic fighter manoeuvres instructional video from Falcon 3 Gold.

EDIT: already posted, I remove the link...