F-18 A/A stores speed test (with F-16 too)

I remember reading a post last year about various stores drag and the fact that 2x racks didn't seem to have any difference vs single racks. My goal was to see if anything has changed since then with the drag characteristics and its effect on max speed.

 

TL;DR; Single vs Dual racks on F-18 still make no difference.

 

 

Test was very simplistic, using SP mode, Persian Gulf Map, 10k altitude, Auto Pilot Enabled, full A/B and use Time-Accel to find max speed stabilze. Tested a variety of load-outs on the F-18 (and F-16 for comparison).

 

Carrying missiles on all possible racks (single or dual) yields the worst performance. Better to carry one dual rack and leave inner pylons empty or with tanks. Given there is only a 0.1 mach (0.99 vs 0.98 ) difference between taking a center tank vs 2 wing tanks, with same missile load-out, might as well have the extra fuel.

 

Only way to compete with the F-16 is if they are loaded for bear, and you are clean with just 2 cheek and 2 tip missiles (scramble load-out perhaps?)

 

As opposed to the F-18, the center vs dual tanks is a factor for the F-16! If you can be mindful of fuel/flying high, a center tank vs 2 wing tanks make a good 0.23 mach (1.39 vs 1.16) difference (~123kts).

 

 

Load-outs in red appears to be optimal for most CAP, general A/A situations.

 

 

F-18 A/A Load-outs (HUD indicated kts /mach)

638/1.16 remove center,2 cheeks 120c, remove plyons, tips 9x

608/1.10 center tank, 2 cheeks 120c, tips 9x

548/0.99 center tank, 2 cheeks 120c, 2x120c racks outer only, tips 9x

547/0.99 center tank, 2 cheeks 120c, 2x120c racks inner only, tips 9x

547/0.99 center tank, 2 cheeks 120c, 1x120c racks outer only, tips 9x

547/0.99 center tank, 2 cheeks 120c, 1x120c racks inner only, tips 9x

537/0.98 remove center, 2 cheeks 120c, 2xtanks, 2x120c racks outer, tips 9x

531/0.96 center tank, 2 cheeks 120c, 2xtanks, 2x120c racks outer, tips 9x

527/0.96 center tank, 2 cheeks 120c, 1x120c all racks, tips 9x

527/0.96 center tank, 2 cheeks 120c, 2x120c all racks, tips 9x

 

 

 

F-16 A/A Load-outs (HUD indicated kts /mach)

870/1.58 remove all pylons, tips 120c

804/1.46 remove center, remove 4/6 pylons, 6x120c

765/1.39 center tank, remove 4/6 pylons, 6x120c

765/1.39 center tank, remove 4/6 pylons, 4x120c, 2x9x (2/8 rack)

765/1.39 center tank, remove 4/6 pylons, 4x120c, 2x9x (3/7 rack)

642/1.16 remove center, tank 4/6 pylons, 6x120c

591/1.07 center tank, tank 4/6 pylons, 6x120c

 

 

 

Good Luck to F-18 in a co-alt BVR 120c slug-fest with F-16! Just taking the "red" load-outs, that's a 0.41 mach energy advantage transfer to the missile!!!

 

 

Lastly, did a "jettison the tanks" test for those two load-outs, and the delta grows 0.1m to 0.42m (F-16 1.43m vs F-18 1.01m)!

 

 

Yikes! Get into the weeds I suppose!

F/A-18C vs all other jets PVP on MP servers has a horrible disadvantage, added to the speeds (and accelerations) mentioned here, F/A-18C ACM / BVR radar lock behavior is atrocious.

Good Luck to F-18 in a co-alt BVR 120c slug-fest with F-16!

 

I mean... any hornet pilot who does that deserves to be splashed :lol:

 

That's why I prefer to face them in the F-15C, it brings balance to the force :D (at least speed wise)

 

Thanks for running the tests and putting the numbers together! :thumbup:

 

 

 

F/A-18C vs all other jets PVP on MP servers has a horrible disadvantage, added to the speeds (and accelerations) mentioned here, F/A-18C ACM / BVR radar lock behavior is atrocious.

 

Beats fulcrum, flanker and mirage hands down, if you ask me.

 

Awesome datalink / SA page + proper TWS + amraams > No DL / Barebones DL + Barebones TWS requiring STT lock + Fox1s / Inferior fox3s

 

Sure, hornet is inferior when compared to tomcat (like the rest, let's be honest), JF-17 (only because SD10 is superior to amraam atm), eagle and viper (in terms of speed only)

 

 

 

As for the "atrocious lock behaviour", I don't know what you mean, exactly. Hornet's radar does require some extra steps to get going, but once it's set, it's quite effective.

 

Sure, it needs to be set to "Auto" in order to retain locks as you move around and it'll bug contacts automatically (often friendlies), just need to get used to it.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Hardcard

F/A-18C vs all other jets PVP on MP servers has a horrible disadvantage, added to the speeds (and accelerations) mentioned here, F/A-18C ACM / BVR radar lock behavior is atrocious.

While the hornet is definitely at a major kinematic disadvantage, I really wouldnt call the radar unreliable at all. Ive found it to be better than the F-16's, actually. It sees stuff way further away, and holds the lock much better, considering that SAM does not keep the antenna centered, and TWS takes a horribly long time to build a trackfile in the F-16, whereas in the F-18 its almost instant. It almost feels like the F-15s TWS imo. As for the ACM modes, the hornets ACM modes are way better than the F-16s imo. LHAQ works up to 40nm and is faster than the F-16s boresight. The unreliable mode in the F-18 is the vertical scan, but I basically never find a situation where I need it. Just my 2c.

When you know your bandit is coming into range closing in from < 15/20nm full speed right ahead of you because he's wasn't properly watching and your vertical is set properly, and you're properly monitoring their VS on the SA because that is what you do, and you know exactly where he is and what he is doing,

then when F/A-18c cannot or locks then drops TWS, or cannot, or locks then drops RWS, switch to AACQ, and cannot or locks then drops AACQ, merged copy paste LHAQ and HACQ modes, intermittently in any of these modes the radar randomly locks bandits and friendlies 20 or 40 or 80 miles out, and the final kill you make is because you found him outside and lock him with your helmet and a 9X, that's atrocious.

On a proper busy MP server with proper live bandits and blues all around.

Edited July 3, 2020 by majapahit

@majapahit

 

Those lock drop problems you're describing sound like you're using 2 bars instead of 4 bars.

 

Alternatively, could it be that you're using interleaved PRF setting instead of high? (Every time it switches to "Med", you lose lock)

 

I don't know, I haven't experienced such issues in MP for a while now (except for the radar auto locking contacts, which might be normal behaviour? I ignore it, tbh.)

@majapahit

Those lock drop problems you're describing sound like you're using 2 bars instead of 4 bars.

4 bars &

high

(except for the radar auto locking contacts, which might be normal behaviour? I ignore it, tbh.)

really ... always the wrong locks .. really, because jet pilots are dumb flying in dumb jets?
Edited July 3, 2020 by majapahit

In case of Hornet: don't load AMRAAMs on pylons under the wings - you will be subsonic.

Under the wings AMRAAMs have massive drag on downward canted pylons and additional racks which are required below this pylons...

 

Hornet for A-A is suppose to load 2 AMRAAMs on fuselage low drag pylons + 2 Sidewinders on wing tips low drag pylons.

In case of Hornet: don't load AMRAAMs on pylons under the wings - you will be subsonic.

Under the wings AMRAAMs have massive drag on downward canted pylons and additional racks which are required below this pylons...

 

Hornet for A-A is suppose to load 2 AMRAAMs on fuselage low drag pylons + 2 Sidewinders on wing tips low drag pylons.

 

A-A Combat loadout for the hHornet is only 2 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders? Are you sure about that?

 

Seems like you will be heavily outgunned that way and will make it impossible to engage multiple bandits.

A-A Combat loadout for the hHornet is only 2 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders? Are you sure about that?

 

Seems like you will be heavily outgunned that way and will make it impossible to engage multiple bandits.

Quick Test

 

2x 120C 3xfuel

AB/MIL120% to 40,000FT (no CONNING ) M0.9 GS 530-550 / leveling out jettisoning tanks gives

Endurance of approx 2hr at M0.82/M0.83

seems reasonable for a flight of multiple jets 1:1

 

same but with 6x120C also to Angels 40 / leveling out jettisoning tanks, results is same

Endurance of approx 2hr at M0.82/M0.83

 

seems in RL, 2x120C seems reasonable in a flight of 2 or 4,

in DCS MP you might as well bring as many 120C at your hearts contend, in range and manoeuvring get as light as the other guy(s).

 

When you high tail RTB in a melee of multiple bandits these numbers of the TP confirm why close surviving bandits can catch up with you on your six, so RTB needs serious consideration (until DCS decides to have a look at evening the odds some, or F/A-18C be limited to PVE in the DCS World).

Edited July 4, 2020 by majapahit

A-A Combat loadout for the hHornet is only 2 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders? Are you sure about that?

 

Seems like you will be heavily outgunned that way and will make it impossible to engage multiple bandits.

 

Hornet is lightwight fighter, having 2 AMRAAMs + 2 Sidewinders you can engage two bandits at range and still have Sidewinders which are deadly close in. Plus gun. It had been designed this way - only 4 missiles on low drag pylons for A-A.

Under the wing pylons, canted downward, requiring additional racks, are for A-G munitions, this are adding a ton of drag.

 

One AMRAAM fired from Ma1.4 has bigger kill probability than 6 AMRAAMs fired from Ma0.9.

 

And realistically if you shoot down just one enemy and manage to return safely it's a very successfull sortie. Try this in i.e. Blue Flag server against people.

 

(The reason some folks have some unrealistic expectations, and howling AMRAAMs loaded subsonic truck, is combat against AI - you can easily shoot down as many AI opponents as you have missiles on board. Agains human or IRL it's a completely different story.)

Hornet is lightwight fighter, having 2 AMRAAMs + 2 Sidewinders you can engage two bandits at range and still have Sidewinders which are deadly close in. Plus gun. It had been designed this way - only 4 missiles on low drag pylons for A-A.

Under the wing pylons, canted downward, requiring additional racks, are for A-G munitions, this are adding a ton of drag.

 

One AMRAAM fired from Ma1.4 has bigger kill probability than 6 AMRAAMs fired from Ma0.9.

 

And realistically if you shoot down just one enemy and manage to return safely it's a very successfull sortie. Try this in i.e. Blue Flag server against people.

 

(The reason some folks have some unrealistic expectations, and howling AMRAAMs loaded subsonic truck, is combat against AI - you can easily shoot down as many AI opponents as you have missiles on board. Agains human or IRL it's a completely different story.)

You're confusing hypotheticals concerning real life with a DCS world sim.

 

And though even in real life there might be for instance guns-only training, rather to figure out the pecking order of a very narrow field of flight control and not much more,

but since Vietnam, a guns-only jet air dual is just not going to exist, is it now, so why, but for small dicks to burn time and jet fuel and not risk the effort of hot sidewinder training.

 

I want my DCS F/A18-C not be the underdog in PVP, because, though we will never know for sure about RL, it's just highly unlikely the F/A18-C has such disadvantage in RL and is the measured dumb underdog as per the data of the Topic Starter in DCS.

 

Besides that and the DCS F/A-18C attack radar that is atrocious.

 

Not good.

You're confusing hypotheticals concerning real life with a DCS world sim.

 

I'm not confusing anything.

 

If you want DCS Hornet to be faster/better accelerating/less dragy than IRL to be "more fun to play" - i don't know what to say.

 

When it comes to acceleration or speed Hornet was never comparable to F-16 with GE engine. Hornet had worse T/W, far more draggy airframe due to barely 20 degrees sweepback to allow low speed carrier landing, heavy undercarriage. Engineering is always a compromise. What do you expect to hear?

 

If you load additional AMRAAMs on high drag under wings pylons, which are canted downwards, and requiring additional racks you are going to be subsonic.

 

And when it comes to radar Hornet, except maybe some bugs, has downsized by 1/3 F-15C radar - and it was very good both IRL and it is one of the best in DCS.

Edited July 4, 2020 by bies

 

 

 

One AMRAAM fired from Ma1.4 has bigger kill probability than 6 AMRAAMs fired from Ma0.9.

 

 

 

 

This is so true... and so hard to learn...

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

I'm not confusing anything.

 

If you want DCS Hornet to be faster/better accelerating/less dragy than IRL to be "more fun to play" - i don't know what to say.

 

When it comes to acceleration or speed Hornet was never comparable to F-16 with GE engine. Hornet had worse T/W, far more draggy airframe due to barely 20 degrees sweepback to allow low speed carrier landing, heavy undercarriage. Engineering is always a compromise. What do you expect to hear?

 

If you load additional AMRAAMs on high drag under wings pylons, which are canted downwards, and requiring additional racks you are going to be subsonic.

 

And when it comes to radar Hornet, except maybe some bugs, has downsized by 1/3 F-15C radar - and it was very good both IRL and it is one of the best in DCS.

You cannot ignore the data from the topic poster, the differences are unreal.

You cannot ignore the data from the topic poster, the differences are unreal.

 

Compared to what? I mean, hornets are known to be very lacking in acceleration and its top speed limit because of the inlet design is M1.8.

 

Obviusly i want a realistic representation, if that means M1.01 with pylon or M1.4 whatever, that should be it. But remember ED have many real hornet drivers giving advice and testing the FM.

Compared to what? I mean, hornets are known to be very lacking in acceleration and its top speed limit because of the inlet design is M1.8.

 

Obviusly i want a realistic representation, if that means M1.01 with pylon or M1.4 whatever, that should be it. But remember ED have many real hornet drivers giving advice and testing the FM.

On the forum, on the web, in military journals, in pilot blogs, pilots who flew both F16 and F18, Lemoine, when asked,

one will Never hear any of these real live pilots say that in their experience ' .. the F16 outperforms the F18 with quite the nice margin .. ', does one now.

On the contrary, hardly a margin whatsoever is what is said, it depends on the pilot, not the airframe. The airframes are about equal in - mentioned is dog fighting / ACM - performance is what is said.

Edited July 5, 2020 by majapahit

Hornet still more then a match for F-16

 

Thing is flying both that i've noticed is in Mil power the Hornet and the F-16 with the same optimized air to air loadouts that the origional poster showed in red are about the same (i think the hornet is a hair faster) and in mil power the Viper definetly has a fuel consumption rate advantage.

 

However when things switch to afterburnner the F-16 consumes way more fuel then the F/A 18 so once things get heated i've been finding it a pretty even fight as the F-16 can't stay at max performace at nearly the length of time as the hornet and if you get into the hills then the hornet with it's better radar and auto aqquistion modes along with it's hud IFF just destroys the F-16s. If it gets to the point that the hornet goes cold low on flat terrain the F-16 can't pursure for long enough to chase down the hornet, I once had a F-16 try to run me down over the ocean on the growling sidewinder server, only to have him turn around and retreat at mil power because he had used all his gas while I had more then enough left to turn around keep it in full burner reel him in to AIM 120 range fire, have him evade that missle and then finish him with a 9x.

 

Yeah the F-16 is fast, but for a limited length of time, it just doesn't have the staying power to control the space. It's got 2-3 joust runs in it then it's done. Hornet has more like 4-5 joust runs.

On the forum, on the web, in military journals, in pilot blogs, pilots who flew both F16 and F18, Lemoine, when asked,

one will Never hear any of these real live pilots say that in their experience ' .. the F16 outperforms the F18 with quite the nice margin .. ', does one now.

On the contrary, hardly a margin whatsoever is what is said, it depends on the pilot, not the airframe. The airframes are about equal in - mentioned is dog fighting / ACM - performance is what is said.

Sorry but that is not totally true, in fact lemoine explain in an article that the f16 is his way to go for bvr, and even describe the f16 as a "rocket ship". Then how much difference this means is a totally different beast.

 

I think we could stop the argument when someone with public documentation or a RL pilot could say some words regarding if that M1.01 limit with pylons is about right or way off.

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

Thing is flying both that i've noticed is in Mil power the Hornet and the F-16 with the same optimized air to air loadouts that the origional poster showed in red are about the same (i think the hornet is a hair faster) and in mil power the Viper definetly has a fuel consumption rate advantage.

 

However when things switch to afterburnner the F-16 consumes way more fuel then the F/A 18 so once things get heated i've been finding it a pretty even fight as the F-16 can't stay at max performace at nearly the length of time as the hornet and if you get into the hills then the hornet with it's better radar and auto aqquistion modes along with it's hud IFF just destroys the F-16s. If it gets to the point that the hornet goes cold low on flat terrain the F-16 can't pursure for long enough to chase down the hornet, I once had a F-16 try to run me down over the ocean on the growling sidewinder server, only to have him turn around and retreat at mil power because he had used all his gas while I had more then enough left to turn around keep it in full burner reel him in to AIM 120 range fire, have him evade that missle and then finish him with a 9x.

 

Yeah the F-16 is fast, but for a limited length of time, it just doesn't have the staying power to control the space. It's got 2-3 joust runs in it then it's done. Hornet has more like 4-5 joust runs.

This was before they 'upgraded' the F18 radar where it now has erratic loss lock? Because F16 was an proper opponent for quite a while but now all TWR of enemy Red team is superior to F18's locking problems. F14 can now find you and not loose you from 40nm out. What do you think you're doing hiding in the hills, trying to avoid 20 minute locks.

Sorry but that is not totally true, in fact lemoine explain in an article that the f16 is his way to go for bvr, and even describe the f16 as a "rocket ship". Then how much difference this means is a totally different beast.

 

I think we could stop the argument when someone with public documentation or a RL pilot could say some words regarding if that M1.01 limit with pylons is about right or way off.

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

 

Mover also said this though

 

"Where the Hornet shines is in the radar itself. The Navy did what the Air Force should have done by realizing that the F-35 was years away and investing in upgraded Hornets (E/F) with AESA radars. Even some of the Marine early A models were upgraded to the A++ variant with the new APG-73 radar and upgraded avionics. The F-16’s APG-68 is not a terrible radar by any means, but it is technology that desperately needs upgrading"

 

He said if the viper had an AESA radar it would beat the hornet. It doesn't though

Mover also said this though

 

"Where the Hornet shines is in the radar itself. The Navy did what the Air Force should have done by realizing that the F-35 was years away and investing in upgraded Hornets (E/F) with AESA radars. Even some of the Marine early A models were upgraded to the A++ variant with the new APG-73 radar and upgraded avionics. The F-16’s APG-68 is not a terrible radar by any means, but it is technology that desperately needs upgrading"

 

He said if the viper had an AESA radar it would beat the hornet. It doesn't though

DCS F18 radar is horribly dysfunctional in MP PVP

This was before they 'upgraded' the F18 radar where it now has erratic loss lock? Because F16 was an proper opponent for quite a while but now all TWR of enemy Red team is superior to F18's locking problems. F14 can now find you and not loose you from 40nm out. What do you think you're doing hiding in the hills, trying to avoid 20 minute locks.

 

Not sure what server and when you last played? I'm not having, or seeing any issue with the F/A 18 radar, and i find it easier to find targets with and employ then the Vipers radar. Also there isn't any air dominance by red on the growling sidewinder server. It's pretty even, and it's not the F-15s that are doing the heavy lifting for blue. Tomcat is limited to staying over the sea or flat terrain or else it pretty much gets flanked and dies. Joust fights with the F-16 and the F/A 18 pretty much go either way, usually who ever has the better position and numbers wins and that varys a lot, usually the hornets are sticking around longer so they have time to set up good positions. F-16 can get higher faster but can't stick around for long, and if they want to take 6 aim 120s then it gives up the mountains where the hornets eat them alive.

 

Usually in the F-16 I'll take 1 Aim 9x and 5 Aim 120s (air force actually does this with F-15s and F-16s where they will just take a single sidewinder) to give me some options other then running when i'm in the hills.

DCS F18 radar is horribly dysfunctional in MP PVP

I'm sorry but I must say this is absolutely untrue in fact its quite the opposite. It has better detection and the tws is surprisingly effective particularly tws auto. It would hold the lock like in STT. I can freely cranking to the edge of MFD and it still hold the lock. Switching target in tws mode is very convinient and fast compared to the Viper with only push undesignate button. It almost like playing arcade game. I don't know what more you could ask lol.

 

I also play on GS server, many times Blue AWACS got killed by long range Phoenix but who need AWACS when you have good radar and link 16 like in the Hornet. In my experience it showed no or little difference.

Also there isn't any air dominance by red on the growling sidewinder server. It's pretty even, .. to give me some options other then running when i'm in the hills.

If it's even, why are you running. Why are you hiding in the hills.