Is the Tomcat the Air to Air King in DCS

Is the flight model correct for the Phoenix? Sometimes if you watch them track they will lock onto chaff and they almost seem to wobble left to right back in forth really quickly. I don’t know if that’s just a videogame being a video game of if that’s what that actually looks like.

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I agree, but it isn't worst than DCS Hornet with 10 AIM-120.:music_whistling:

Sure, I had a good LOL moment online a while back with some dude whining about how bad the hornet was A/A, it was slow, didn't maneuver etc. Yup you guessed it, full spamraam 120 loadout and a centerline tank. Guess he never heard about Draaaaag.

But I think the main issue is that currently you have like one or two missiles using the "new" API, i.e. the 120's and I think the SD-10. Everything else AFAIK is on the "old" API. Which creates a pile of issues in and of itself. And even with the "New" API, you may or may not be able to fully model the missile behavior accurately (dual impulse motor on the SD-10 for example). And I know ED is slowly updating some of the other missiles, but really It needs to be done in some logical "pair" order, and the 3rd party guys need to get their missiles updated ASAP.

Is the flight model correct for the Phoenix? Sometimes if you watch them track they will lock onto chaff and they almost seem to wobble left to right back in forth really quickly. I don’t know if that’s just a videogame being a video game of if that’s what that actually looks like.

 

 

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IDK if that's an FM issue or not. The issue is the in DCS Chaff works like "flares" do for IR missiles. Generally not how it works IRL. But that's not on HB...

I know how to defeat them, at least until I run out of Chaff. If anything I'm bitching about aeroquake and yeeting off 6 phoenixes at single fighter sized target and how annoying and unrealistic it is. Or maybe the SME's would care to chime in about how "realistic" yeeting off 6 Phoenixes at a lone fighter sized target is.

 

The problem as I pointed out is this whole half modeled approach in DCS. The AWG-9 is jammable by modern jammers, i.e. can't see the target can't shoot it. But wait, that's not done, hell its not even on the roadmap as far as I can tell. Yes you can "notch it", but that has 0 impact on phoenix guidance, which track you regardless. So I'd say not being able to use 2 fairly standard tactics against the 'cat is kind-of a problem. And yes I know all about HOJ.

 

The AIM-54A with its state of the art 60's radar was also pretty susceptible to various jamming techniques by the 1990's which given the state of the art of DCS means it goes for chaff since that's what we have instead of an actual ECM model.

If someone fires 6 AIM-54s at you, just turn cold and run. Or just notch them all and drop chaff and you will defeat them all at once. Once the 54s are all out of energy, they are out of missiles and you can turn and kill them (or they run home and their sortie was pointless). Firing multiple missiles simultaneously is a very bad tactic. Now a Pk-enhancing missile or two is not the same thing and a very valid tactic. Exploit your enemy's ignorance, don't whine about it.

Also as far as jamming, the Phoenix has track hold and burn through is a thing, so that's not going to 100% defeat a shot. I'm kinda thinking you don't actually fly the F-14 and just came here to complain. We all know about ED's half-baked attempts at EW and Radar modelling, but this is the F-14 forum not the DCS World problems forum...

If someone fires 6 AIM-54s at you, just turn cold and run. Or just notch them all and drop chaff and you will defeat them all at once. Once the 54s are all out of energy, they are out of missiles and you can turn and kill them (or they run home and their sortie was pointless). Firing multiple missiles simultaneously is a very bad tactic. Now a Pk-enhancing missile or two is not the same thing and a very valid tactic. Exploit your enemy's ignorance, don't whine about it.

 

Also as far as jamming, the Phoenix has track hold and burn through is a thing, so that's not going to 100% defeat a shot. I'm kinda thinking you don't actually fly the F-14 and just came here to complain. We all know about ED's half-baked attempts at EW and Radar modelling, but this is the F-14 forum not the DCS World problems forum...

That's where you're wrong. :megalol:

And yes I know how to dump phoenixes in DCS especially max range launches. The last time I got killed by one the crafty bastard saved one (kinda hard to tell if its 5 or 6 on the RWR at one time) and I ate it at short(ish) range, but it was a trade.

Here is the thing with "burn through", if you are talking about really simple noise jamming, yup that's a thing (of WW2 fame even), though one wonders about the relative power and beam shaping ability of the phoenix radar (yay glory be to the 60's). Versus something like mid/late 2000's jammer on a modern AC with way more available power, and likely much better beam shaping. At a guess, that burn through range on the phoenix is gonna be real short (yes it still might go totally stupid due to hoj) and will likely miss. Or, and wait for it, that late 2000's era jammer is gonna be a deception jammer and track breakers and cross polarization jamming have been a thing for many years (them thar funny lookin' thangs on them Sukhois wingtips). So, Mr phoenix is gonna think the big bad aiwpwane he wants to kill is 500m or 1km over from where you are regardless of "burn through". I'd post you a patent or two on that, but its likely breaking forum rules.

At any rate I don't believe ECM in DCSW doesn't work against fox3's or active sams (and it should). Just reducing the range of the launch radar (which it doesn't against the F14 or course).

If we're talking about modern ECM, the same would be true (or more true) of all the aircraft in DCS. Why come to the F-14 forum to whine about it?

I would say that the 14 is more like a grand throne. If the person sitting in it is a king, the throne is all the more intimidating and regal. But if you put the village idiot on it, well...

If we're talking about modern ECM, the same would be true (or more true) of all the aircraft in DCS. Why come to the F-14 forum to whine about it?

Yup you are right, except that more true part, unless you are comparing the AWG-9 to the Mig21 radar... I'll bet that pretty much all of the other radars in game have far better ECM resistance than the AWG-9 with its massive sidelobes and 2bit processor.

For the second part... Cuz the Viper hornet and Tom guys came to the Jeff forum to whine about the SD-10 being OP? Why not here.

Both Jamming and AIM-54 fixes are in plans.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=268159

@Harlikwin: As for defending against 6 missiles, well, one of them killed you so the enemy gets a medal and you're dead - I'd say the job is done, maybe not pretty, but still.

Both Jamming and AIM-54 fixes are in plans.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=268159

 

@Harlikwin: As for defending against 6 missiles, well, one of them killed you so the enemy gets a medal and you're dead - I'd say the job is done, maybe not pretty, but still.

Thanks for that link Draconus. I really do hope that HB prioritizes the AWG-9 jamming effects, though at a guess its only going to be for the crappy "noise" jammers we currently have, which will have a minimal impact on the AWG-9. And hopefully we get a better AIM-54 model out of the deal.

At the end of the day its not about "that guy", been shot down online plenty really, and I'm not AceFigherBro. Mostly by F14's which well, that's what they were designed to do. So I don't care that much. I just want my death to be a wee bit more realistic.

More to the point, I want to raise awareness about ALL the stuff that is not really modeled in DCS in general and how that actually impacts the game and "realism". I hear the common refrain, of we don't care about balance, we just want realism. Well at the end of the day the main guys saying that are the ones tossing the missiles out and having fun (and after eating a few SD-10s are the same guys whining about Chinesium and other quasi racist stuff).

At the end of the day, "modern" air combat and things like ECM are more or less synonymous and have been for more than half a century, and all we get are some lame excuses from ED on that front. And as for realism, I'm quite confident that the JF-17 SPJ (being flown by Pakistan in 2020 that shares a border with Iran) has a really nice program called something like (F-the-Phoenix) and perhaps it looses something in translation, and since the Iranian version is some vague approximation of the actual 60's era US Aim54A missile, I'm sure that program would work "just fine" against that. And since the last time the Aim54C missile was updated was the late 80's/early 90's, that 30+ years later someone figure out how to jam it rather well.

So those guys claiming they want realism. They should expect the phoenix pK against jamming targets to be well.... Not "good" depending on the jammer and era, and even there, some decent percentage of missiles should just "fail" on fire. Since that's the US actual combat record with the phoenix. I for one would love to see the actual fail rates of the Iranian Aim54A's. But I'm pretty sure every single one has lit off just fine, tracked targets off the rail even when I've turned cold, and then managed to track targets through mountains. You know, in the name of the pursuit of glorious "realism".

It'd be nice to know how ineffective the phoenix would be indeed. But they are already quite easy to notch when being shot from quite far away, and a pilot who knows what he's doing won't expect it to hit :)

However I agree that people shouldn't be able to split S right after the shot at 50 Nm with the missile still tracking...

It'd be nice to know how ineffective the phoenix would be indeed. But they are already quite easy to notch when being shot from quite far away, and a pilot who knows what he's doing won't expect it to hit :)

 

However I agree that people shouldn't be able to split S right after the shot at 50 Nm with the missile still tracking...

I mean that's part of it. Your chaff shouldn't really work either... Or not like it does at any rate. DCS EW modeling is at the WW2 level... Maybe Nick grey hates "boffins"... IDK...

I would say that the 14 is more like a grand throne. If the person sitting in it is a king, the throne is all the more intimidating and regal. But if you put the village idiot on it, well...

This is very true.

I mean that's part of it. Your chaff shouldn't really work either... Or not like it does at any rate. DCS EW modeling is at the WW2 level... Maybe Nick grey hates "boffins"... IDK...

Re the EW modelling , yes it‘s bad, however you can fantasize all you want about late 90s /early 2000 jamming and EW technology it‘s likely not going to happen in any realistic fashion.

My personal opinion is, DCS would be much better / realistic if ED focused heavily on a late 60s/70s/max early 80s cold war era.

A lot of things could be somewhat better simulated as more information about the technology is available, plus(again personal opinion) its a more interesting and challenging environment.

But I understand a lot of people want to fly the newest shiny toys and those will sell better,even if certain important aspects are pure guesswork at best or badly simulated at worst.

As for the F-14 in A2A, it has its strength and weaknesses like most other aircraft.

Regards,

Snappy

Re the EW modelling , yes it‘s bad, however you can fantasize all you want about late 90s /early 2000 jamming and EW technology it‘s likely not going to happen in any realistic fashion.

My personal opinion is, DCS would be much better / realistic if ED focused heavily on a late 60s/70s/max early 80s cold war era.

A lot of things could be somewhat better simulated as more information about the technology is available, plus(again personal opinion) its a more interesting and challenging environment.

 

But I understand a lot of people want to fly the newest shiny toys and those will sell better,even if certain important aspects are pure guesswork at best or badly simulated at worst.

 

As for the F-14 in A2A, it has its strength and weaknesses like most other aircraft.

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

I totally agree with you regarding the era. But ED and other devs have decided to do "modern". Personally I think 70/80s would be the most fun. Rather than some lame BVR lob fest for the most part you get a single Fox1 shot in on your way to the merge and then its game on. Which strikes me as more "fun". But the overwhelming number of players and servers want to play with the wunderwaffles and enjoy the lob fest.

As for fantasizing the patent on cross polarization jamming is from 96... Entirely out there and open source. And prior to the whole Corona thing ED had a job posting up for an EW guy.

Thanks for that link Draconus. I really do hope that HB prioritizes the AWG-9 jamming effects, though at a guess its only going to be for the crappy "noise" jammers we currently have, which will have a minimal impact on the AWG-9.

Maybe jammers have minimal impact on AWG-9, but chaffs are flooding my TID screen and make TWS go crazy ! Phoenix too by the way !

Maybe jammers have minimal impact on AWG-9, but chaffs are flooding my TID screen and make TWS go crazy ! Phoenix too by the way !

Can you post a vid of chaff messing with the TID. First ive heard of that and never seen it happen.

Can you post a vid of chaff messing with the TID. First ive heard of that and never seen it happen.

Yes, that's in VR so it will be a little bit difficult to see...working on it.

I did check with TacView replay.

Edit: well, the video is jumpy, I'm constantly moving the head. But look at the screenshot.

I'm flying North, 2 MiG-29 going south and defensive after AIM-54 launch.

Out of nowhere, a trail of contacts appears with velocity vectors to the North.

On the second picture, I replayed the same mission, the MiG-29 are defending East, but the radar is interested in contacts going full speed West, I have no idea what it can be.

On this position on TacView no chaff, no SAM...nothing:huh:

SINGLE PLAYER MISSION. So no lag

Interesting. That first image is pretty bad res but i can see the smear of stuff on the TID that i assume is chaff. Never seen that in my online games. But i havent flown the tom online lately.

Sorry for the resolution, these are video screen shots, video is 1080p and the FoV is wide.

I’m not 100% sure what it is. And this isn’t online, this is single player.

So here it is, I have weird stuff on the screen. And these MiG-29A don’t even have jammer.

Strings of ghost contacts, fake contacts going left and right at high speed...

Guys, seriously? Chaff going hypersonic?

It's the most common bug since TWS-A intro!

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=260806

Probably already fixed in next update.

Guys, seriously? Chaff going hypersonic?

It's the most common bug since TWS-A intro!

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=260806

 

Probably already fixed in next update.

Tanks, I missed the following discussion after first page :D

TWS bug then :thumbup:

I just tried again, fake contacts are so bad that TWS is unusable for me with Jester. :(

I hope it will be corrected on next update.

Until then back to the hangar.

Hasn't seemed to effect people online much. Then again, the tactic there seems to be launch at 30-40nm, immediately go cold since the phoenix doesn't need any sort of mid course guidance updates.

Then again, I have lovely tacview of a SD-10 heading to a target for a kill then at the last second turning 90 degrees and flying in formation with the target till it runs out of energy.

So guidance issues abound...

Hasn't seemed to effect people online much. Then again, the tactic there seems to be launch at 30-40nm, immediately go cold since the phoenix doesn't need any sort of mid course guidance updates.

 

Then again, I have lovely tacview of a SD-10 heading to a target for a kill then at the last second turning 90 degrees and flying in formation with the target till it runs out of energy.

 

So guidance issues abound...

Good for them.

MP with buddy or solo I get so many fakes contacts that I loose the targets, and there are only 2 of them without jammers.

I try to support the AIM-54 during the crank, like I should.

The STT is sub-par too. Loosing lock way too easily on contacts cranking above horizon (not even beaming) with nose camera still tracking (inside of 20Nm).

I also had issues with AIM-120C (shot with Hornet).

I watched it heading for the kill then pull hard Gs to avoid the target and miss just in front of it.

Maybe that AMRAAM wasn’t decided to die yet :D