The beginnings of an F-4 pit

From what I see from some Voodoo pictures I guess you only have to remove that screws and change the Voodoo throttle handle with the F-4 throttle handle and that´s it.

It looks that simple... but life events keep taking up all of my time. I may get to try tonight. But I had fun working the voodoo levers. They work differently than the F-4, but in a way that is very compatible with flight sims.

The afterburner control range overlaps the max mil power range, moving the levers outboard while in the afterburner range engages the afterburner and limits the throttle to minimum afterburner. The levers must be moved back inboard which disengages the afterburner to be able to move below the min afterburner position.

Instead of finger-lift detents for idle, the throttle levers stop at idle while inboard. They must be moved outboard before they can be retarded to hit the throttle stop. Also, while outboard, the throttle levers can only be advanced to just above an idle.

Some DCS aircraft will work perfect with the switch that is engaged while you are outboard in the afterburner range. In most cases, this will work better than the F-4's version where you go outboard to advance past max mil power.

The handles popped right in and it works very well.

I am curious and looking forward to see some pics of the throttles.

I compared the motion ranges to the numbers in the F-4E Pilot's Manual. The angle sweep from Full cutoff to idle is nearly identical. The angle from idle to min burner is nearly identical. It is only from min burner to max burner that the range is dramatically smaller. But there is not stop at min burner when the throttle is inboard. The min burner stop only works when afterburner is engaged. I could engineer a stop to make it so that you would have to go outboard to advance past minimum burner. But I will only mess with that after I see how the whole thing works in the game. One way or the other, this will work just fine with DCS World. Just a matter of personal preference on how I make it work in the sim.

I recently got a winwing HOTAS. I got the package that came with the desk mounts for the throttle and stick. This has proven to be instrumental in making progress on my F-4 throttle, because now the left console has been replaced by the desk mounted throttle pulled out of service to install the real throttle quadrant.

But it just hit me: I can do the same for the stick. I can adapt the desk mount to my VKB GF base so that I can remount the F-4 stick back on the wood platform with the ejection seat. I have a spare Warthog stick base I can easily use to provide the pitch axis. I hope I can figure out a way to use the same base for the roll axis. If not, I have another base available that can be mounted as necessary to mechanically connect to the roll. I can also disassemble the extra warthog grip and wire my f-4 stick buttons to it, plus have several spares left over for other functions... say a tail hook lever? ejection handle? Whatever I need that won't get in the way of anything else.

I intend to use the Warthog throttle to receive the real throttle lever inputs. I haven't decided whether I am going to use the throttle to provide the button inputs or use my old BU0836X board.

I don't know when I will get around to putting this all together. I need a day or two just to get the real throttle mounted at the right position/height to fit with the surrounding panels I previously installed. I think I already have all the materials I need to do this out in the garage: wood, lengths of angled aluminum that can be cut to make mounting brackets and/or braces as required.

I have a clear vision of where I am trying to go. I now have a clear vision of how I am going to get there. Now, I just need to carve out the time to execute the plan.

I recently got TM TPR pedals in preparation for completing my F-4 cockpit. They are a reasonable representation of the physical appearance and mechanical action of F-4 rudder pedals. I still have my old Saitek rudder pedals, but I would only use them again as a last resort. I am thinking I need a set of Slaw pedals for the modern/generic desk pit and dedicate the TPR pedals to my F-4 sim pit.

The future is so bright, I gotta wear shades B)

Now, if ED or one of the third parties would give me a DCS F-4. I have tried flying the very well modeled F-4s from Milviz and Simworks in P3d, but I can't stand the FSX/P3d platform compared to dedicated combat flight sims. By default, the Thirdwire Strike Fighters series remains the best combat sim for flying F-4s, but it is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the FSX/P3d side. DCS sits in the middle with more or less the same combat simulation capabilities of the SF series and at the same time all the eye candy and systems modeling of P3d. I would hope that Heatblur would do a Naval F-4 variant due to their experience with the very similar F-14A/B: two seat all-weather fleet defense interceptor. I would love any variant flown by the USN VFs: F-4B/N or F-4J/S series.

I don't know how ED will approach the long-delayed F-4E. They don't have any two-seaters unless you count the helicopters, which don't have anything close to Jester AI. My experience in P3d is that modern HOTAS controls provide more than enough for me to operate the radar from the front seat. I just need a moment in the back seat for making detailed search mode selections, but can change the range scale and lock onto targets just fine from the front seat thanks to HOTAS analog ministicks and countless buttons that are free to assign because the F-4 had only very basic HOTAS switches.

Installed the throttle levers today. The only way it could have gone better is if I actually had an F-4 quadrant instead of an F-101 quadrant. Now I just need to get it connected to a USB controller.

Wow, great build, that looks awesome!

Looking forward to see a video of that beast in action!

I played with the mechanics of the levers today.

First, I was able to install the finger lifts. They don't do anything but move up and down, but they look good and don't interfere with the operation of the levers at all.

Next, I was able measure the angles and adjust everything to work very close to the F-4. The mechanical idle stop is exactly where it should be. The engine off position is about 2 degrees off, but it doesn't matter because all it has to do is hit a button, which it does. Afterburner is where all the trouble lies.

The F-101 is designed to have full military power with the throttle all the way forward, so there is no detent when the levers are toggled inboard, just the idle detent. But when you move the levers outboard to engage afterburners, there is a detent to keep you from dropping out of afterburner. I have adjusted the detent for the correct angle for the F-4's military power/afterburner boundary. So all I need to do to make it right is make some sort of adjustable bracket to make a detent for military power when the levers are inboard. An additional problem with afterburner is that the maximum range of motion is about 7 degrees to short. So, the available control range for afterburner is a bit smaller than the real F-4. It shouldn't be a problem for flying in game as the available range of motion from military to full afterburner is still probably larger than most consumer grade HOTAS setups.

I can easily add a bracket that would make the finger lifts operational so that you would need to lift them to cut off the engine. But the existing detent works by moving the levers outboard to go to cutoff. I would have to machine out the frame to get rid of the existing detent so that you would use the finger lifts to move the levers past idle to cutoff rather than moving the levers outboard. The existing detent is at the correct position and I would hate to damage the throttle's structure in any way. So, I may just leave things as they are with the finger lifts being there just for looks.

I think for now, I am going to move on to integrating the throttle into a USB controller. Most likely using one of my Warthog throttles to be the left and right throttle axes and maybe find a way to wire up the buttons to the switches on the throttle and the surround panels.

Amazing project, I'm very keen to see how you go. Heres hoping you get a DCS module some day

Wow what an amazing work! I am really looking forward to see what you will have in the end! Damn great.

I have done some wood work and painting to make room for a modified Warthog throttle to provide the lever inputs as well as improve the finished look "under the hood". I have removed the throttle grips from the Warthog, leaving only lever "nubs" that need to interface with the real levers. Most of the Warthog switches on the base have large blades that will allow me to put the real switches in parallel with the Warthog switches without altering or damaging the Warthog at all. I may have to cut some wires to use the inputs for the grip switches from the Warthog with the grip switches on the real throttle. I haven't had the time to move forward, but this is going to work really well once I get things connected.

Most of the switches will be mapped to the same functions. i.e. the speed brake switch inputs on the Warthog will be mapped to the speed brake on the real stick. Mic switch, idle stop, etc. So my Warthog throttle maps that already exist in the game will largely be usable with minimal problems.

What I want are more real panels to complete the surrounding areas. I have not been able to find any online. I may have to fabricate my own, which won't look nearly as good and won't have the correct knobs/levers/guards of the real switches.

How did the finished project look? Really excited to see what it looks like.

I have never finished the throttle. I want to connect the real levers to a Warthog throttle base. I added sleeves to the stubs that are left when you remove the throttle grips, so I now have wooden blocks that can be used to attach whatever control scheme I decide to try. But the problem is that the range of movement for the Warthog "stubs" is much larger than the range of movement of the real throttle levers at the attachment points. I haven't had the time to dream up some way of scaling the movement reliably: i.e. amplify the real levers' small range to the Warthog's larger range. I have considered trying to using pushrods and levers made from aluminum bar stock, but I haven't ever taken the time to sketch it up and find/buy materials. I like to use radio control aircraft parts for linkages/pushrods because they are readily available, have threaded ends to make minor adjustments, and I am familiar with what is available and how to use them.

I have not stopped looking for other panels so that I could complete the left console. But the only ones I could find were in Europe and not even accounting for shipping, the prices were too high. So, already having real panels and knowing I can get similar if not identical switches on e-Bay, I think I will end up trying to build replica panels: steel mounting plate with transparent acrylic or plexiglass panels that are painted black and engraved with the lettering painted white. But to do the cutting/engraving I either have to invest in some tooling or find the right software and order custom panels.

I still need to provide a second seat/stick platform for my WinWing controls so that I can use my existing one mount and wire up the real F-4 stick as originally built.

I have real life issues at home and at work that limit the time and money I can put into this right now. But if DCS is actually going to release an F-4 in the near future as appeared to be hinted in a recent Russian interview, I will make an effort to get this working sooner rather than later.

On 9/18/2021 at 7:18 AM, streakeagle said:

I have never finished the throttle. I want to connect the real levers to a Warthog throttle base. I added sleeves to the stubs that are left when you remove the throttle grips, so I now have wooden blocks that can be used to attach whatever control scheme I decide to try. But the problem is that the range of movement for the Warthog "stubs" is much larger than the range of movement of the real throttle levers at the attachment points. I haven't had the time to dream up some way of scaling the movement reliably: i.e. amplify the real levers' small range to the Warthog's larger range. I have considered trying to using pushrods and levers made from aluminum bar stock, but I haven't ever taken the time to sketch it up and find/buy materials. I like to use radio control aircraft parts for linkages/pushrods because they are readily available, have threaded ends to make minor adjustments, and I am familiar with what is available and how to use them.

 

I have not stopped looking for other panels so that I could complete the left console. But the only ones I could find were in Europe and not even accounting for shipping, the prices were too high. So, already having real panels and knowing I can get similar if not identical switches on e-Bay, I think I will end up trying to build replica panels: steel mounting plate with transparent acrylic or plexiglass panels that are painted black and engraved with the lettering painted white. But to do the cutting/engraving I either have to invest in some tooling or find the right software and order custom panels.

 

I still need to provide a second seat/stick platform for my WinWing controls so that I can use my existing one mount and wire up the real F-4 stick as originally built.

 

I have real life issues at home and at work that limit the time and money I can put into this right now. But if DCS is actually going to release an F-4 in the near future as appeared to be hinted in a recent Russian interview, I will make an effort to get this working sooner rather than later.

Think this may be interesting to you then.

Whoever is doing it, it hasn't even been formally announced, which means many more years to go.

10 minutes ago, streakeagle said:

Whoever is doing it, it hasn't even been formally announced, which means many more years to go.

There is only one 3rd party that has an upcoming module that hasn't been announced and on their own webpage it says "Next Generation Flyable Module" under a title of 2022.  

On 4/6/2013 at 9:08 AM, streakeagle said:

I have been working on this for years. I initially just wanted to find an F-4 B-8 stick grip and mount it on a stock HOTAS, but then I got the chance to buy the entire F-4 stick assembly. So I spent years just using that interfaced into various USB sticks. But I finally got serious and committed to interfacing the stick with a a BU0836X and building a wooden mockup of the Martin-Baker Mk H7 ejection seat along with the left (throttle) console. Over the short term, I am using a Thrustmaster Warthog throttle, but eventually I will make replica F-4 throttle handles and interface them with the BU0836X (it has proven to be too difficult/expensive to get real ones). I would also like to build my own rudder pedals.

 

For the time being, I need to finish building the main support frame for the seat that includes the headrest and ejection d-ring handles. Once the seat is finished, I will go back fill, sand, and paint everything.

 

 

 

With the F-4 officially announced it is now my turn to start working on a simpit because of some family history with the planes. As such I would like to know where you got the printout (?) of the side consoles, as I have to make everything by hand and want the correctly scaled side and front panels as a basis as I hand craft each panel for 3d printing or laser cutting. Please let me know if you can.

4 hours ago, Zpigman said:

With the F-4 officially announced it is now my turn to start working on a simpit because of some family history with the planes. As such I would like to know where you got the printout (?) of the side consoles, as I have to make everything by hand and want the correctly scaled side and front panels as a basis as I hand craft each panel for 3d printing or laser cutting. Please let me know if you can.

 

I had another flight simmer who was putting together real F-4 panels post pics with dimensions. I took the photos and scaled them to print out 1:1 to match the dimensions given. I printed them out on white card stock 8 1/2 x 11 and taped them together. Here is the forum post where you can find my source images: F-4 Phantom B-8 Stick Phase 3 - Game Controllers - CombatACE

I originally used upscaled black and white images from the F-4E manual, then pasted over them with the above upgraded panels photos.

Note: The Tracer posting above is the same person that posted the photos at the link

1 hour ago, streakeagle said:

I had another flight simmer who was putting together real F-4 panels post pics with dimensions. I took the photos and scaled them to print out 1:1 to match the dimensions given. I printed them out on white card stock 8 1/2 x 11 and taped them together. Here is the forum post where you can find my source images: F-4 Phantom B-8 Stick Phase 3 - Game Controllers - CombatACE

I originally used upscaled black and white images from the F-4E manual, then pasted over them with the above upgraded panels photos.

Note: The Tracer posting above is the same person that posted the photos at the link

 

Sweet thank you very much, I need to select which panels I need to make first and foremost, now just need to find rio/wso/gib stuff. Going to be interesting to size those panels correctly, if I make proper 3d models I will probably share them here. Just need to figure out how I am going to do the throttle, thinking of the winwing Gemini base that is just the throttle section from the Orion or maybe disconnect the startup panel from the super torus. Don’t have any solid plan as this would be the first 3 parts of a modular cockpit, left right and center. 

I used to be able to go to the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola and take real measurements in a simulator cockpit, but they closed access to the base after a shooting so I can't go there anymore. But the USAF Museum in Dayton has a real F-4 cockpit you can sit in and I took measurements there, too. If you have any aviation museums nearby with an F-4, you might be able to arrange a visit where you can sit inside and take measurements. Someone made a 3d laser scan of an F-4 including the cockpit and they have it available for sale. If you have access to the software needed to open the file, that would be perfect for getting measurements.

Check out the laser scan of an RF-4: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II - 3D model by Raiz (@RaizVR) [65e172a] (sketchfab.com)

On 1/27/2022 at 8:43 PM, streakeagle said:

Check out the laser scan of an RF-4: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II - 3D model by Raiz (@RaizVR) [65e172a] (sketchfab.com)

Don't have the software, but I may be able to get some measurements of the parts and then use a British site for the f4j's panels and size them correctly.