Flight model thoughts

I never use sound mods... I trust my ears and our guru btd... :-) Yes, it's our reworked sound.

Great to hear. Is it only for spitfire or all planes? :)

which is required to stall during landing

Of course it's not required since you can do 2-pointer, or wheel, landings as well. But 3-point, or stall,landings are what you usually do in a taildragger still.

Stalls a bit strong - more accurately it should be a settle or sink.

There is a point when in the three point attitude the wings are generating lift but insufficiently to overcome the weight of the airframe, ergo the nose is high but the velocity vector of the airframe is forward and down. It's at this stage you should be 30-60cm over the runway and in a nice tail-low attitude.

A stall is a complete breakdown of any lift generation whatsoever - you reach this point during your landing then you've flared too hard or too early/high and it's gonna be a bumpy arrival at best.

I realize you have plenty of experience with different aircraft sdflyer, not sure if you know this, because you only registered on the forum this month. Just in case you don't know, ED's publisher is The Fighter Collection, they have owned, flown and restore many types of Spitfire, these are the guy's that have tested the Spitfire and other ww2 birds for DCS.

 

Art-J did mention this on the first page, not sure if you knew the relationship between ED and TFC.

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Of course it's impressive, and I'm sure that Spitfire modeled up to the best knowledge. However, I'm debating of tweaks relative to control inputs we currently use. If it's impossible to accommodate than why bother to model airplanes on the first place? Just saying.

Stalls a bit strong - more accurately it should be a settle or sink.

 

There is a point when in the three point attitude the wings are generating lift but insufficiently to overcome the weight of the airframe, ergo the nose is high but the velocity vector of the airframe is forward and down. It's at this stage you should be 30-60cm over the runway and in a nice tail-low attitude.

 

A stall is a complete breakdown of any lift generation whatsoever - you reach this point during your landing then you've flared too hard or too early/high and it's gonna be a bumpy arrival at best.

Hi DD_Fenrir,

Thanks for posting your takeoff and landing vid. Best one on this topic I've seen and it has helped me a great deal. I can now sequentially land but have to tweak my settings a bit more re: sensitivity on rudders for example so as not to over correct.

Thanks again,

Cats . . . .

I never use sound mods... I trust my ears and our guru btd... :-) Yes, it's our reworked sound.

I thought so, but wanted to ask just to be sure. Sounds promising :D.

I think I can handle this aircraft now. I can take off and land without problems. Yey!:D The next step is to learn to dogfight. I love this plane! Thank you!

Part II of the same landing added

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3229969&postcount=89

:thumbup: Wow! Solid gust of crosswind can make Spit lading near death experience :)

I apologize if it has been mentioned already, but under cursory examination, I have not seen it. I seem to notice a pronounced ballooning effect immediately upon RAISING flaps. This seems counter to what I would typically expect. I get it under control fast with a crazy amount of trimming, but it's so noticeable, that I would also expect it to be immediately commented upon if it were out of the ordinary. Is this simply how the plane is designed to perform?

Thanks.

You know I took the Spit up for some fun last night and it felt WAY different than it did the last time I flew it. I mean it almost bordered on out of control over sensitivity from the last time I flew it. Made me wonder if an update was applied to it and this is the result.

I apologize if it has been mentioned already, but under cursory examination, I have not seen it. I seem to notice a pronounced ballooning effect immediately upon RAISING flaps. This seems counter to what I would typically expect. I get it under control fast with a crazy amount of trimming, but it's so noticeable, that I would also expect it to be immediately commented upon if it were out of the ordinary. Is this simply how the plane is designed to perform?

 

Thanks.

The ballooning is not just with the Spitfire. You would get the same response from a Cessna 172, which I have tons of hours in.

Do you have the SYNC HOTAS box checked in Options/Misc?

The ballooning is not just with the Spitfire. You would get the same response from a Cessna 172, which I have tons of hours in.

 

Do you have the SYNC HOTAS box checked in Options/Misc?

Sorry I edited previously posted reply via my phone. I believe ballooning was referred in this context rising flaps. I flown nearly every model of 172 staring from B (which is equipped with Continental) and finishing with modern fuel injected Lycoming S. I can't recall any of them would "balloon" after rising flaps; in contrary, they would sink and especially during last 10 degrees of flaps. So it's commonly taught during recovery from slow flight/stall to keep little back pressure on the yoke when rising last 10 degrees of flaps in order to compensate for sinking tendency.

In contrast, 172 would "balloon" during flaps deplyoment (due to center of pressure apply to particular point). Most aircraft would balloon; however, some the could dip nose down instead. I think DCS Spit is modeled correctly in the respect. Although I personally believe it feels a bit exaggerated - biased me LOL )

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Accidentally come across very interesting impression of MK IX. From the reading it seems like landing roll is more complicated than take off.

http://www.warbirdalley.com/articles/spitfire-flight-report.htm

Sorry I edited previously posted reply via my phone. I believe ballooning was referred in this context rising flaps. I flown nearly every model of 172 staring from B (which is equipped with Continental) and finishing with modern fuel injected Lycoming S. I can't recall any of them would "balloon" after rising flaps; in contrary, they would sink and especially during last 10 degrees of flaps. So it's commonly taught during recovery from slow flight/stall to keep little back pressure on the yoke when rising last 10 degrees of flaps in order to compensate for sinking tendency.

 

In contrast, 172 would "balloon" during flaps deplyoment (due to center of pressure apply to particular point). Most aircraft would balloon; however, some the could dip nose down instead. I think DCS Spit is modeled correctly in the respect. Although I personally believe it feels a bit exaggerated - biased me LOL )

 

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In the case of the 172's with electric flaps, you are right. The flaps go up too slowly to cause ballooning. However, in the earlier models with a manual flap handle, ballooning would occur if you raised them too quickly. With the Spitfire, flaps are all or nothing and snap up and down pretty fast.

I have flown every model from the fast-back (don't know which model, maybe 1960) through the 172RG. Used to work at Cessna, delivered new planes (almost all models) on weekends for about 5 years.

I agree. Several things about the Spitfire may be exaggerated. Or, maybe not. LOL

Sorry I edited previously posted reply via my phone. I believe ballooning was referred in this context rising flaps. I flown nearly every model of 172 staring from B (which is equipped with Continental) and finishing with modern fuel injected Lycoming S. I can't recall any of them would "balloon" after rising flaps; in contrary, they would sink and especially during last 10 degrees of flaps. So it's commonly taught during recovery from slow flight/stall to keep little back pressure on the yoke when rising last 10 degrees of flaps in order to compensate for sinking tendency.

 

In contrast, 172 would "balloon" during flaps deplyoment (due to center of pressure apply to particular point). Most aircraft would balloon; however, some the could dip nose down instead. I think DCS Spit is modeled correctly in the respect. Although I personally believe it feels a bit exaggerated - biased me LOL )

 

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Yes, this is what I was referring to. To me, the Spit seems to literally jump upwards after the flaps are RAISED. I was asking if this is normal/accurate for this plane. I am not sure why it would be.

The only situation in which flap retraction should occur (inflight) in the Spitfire AFAIK should be on a go-around, since the aircraft is supposed to takeoff with flaps up, and the flaps should only be used for approach & ldg...

Then when deployed, due to the effect of the deflected downwash on the tail, there is a pitching ( down ) moment that the pilot can compensate by pulling the stick, and in DCS is modelled, if no input is applied, as a short advance of the stick.

Correspondingly, if inflight with the flaps deployed, they are retracted, the change of the downwash angle and associated effect of the HS and elevator will cause a pitching up tendency, with the stick if not held in place, tending to move back a bit, thus causing that "ballooning" sensation...

You can easily track these effects on the elevator by enabling "Control Visualization" with R-CTRL ENTER

The only situation in which flap retraction should occur (inflight) in the Spitfire AFAIK should be on a go-around, since the aircraft is supposed to takeoff with flaps up, and the flaps should only be used for approach & ldg...

 

Then when deployed, due to the effect of the deflected downwash on the tail, there is a pitching ( down ) moment that the pilot can compensate by pulling the stick, and in DCS is modelled, if no input is applied, as a short advance of the stick.

 

Correspondingly, if inflight with the flaps deployed, they are retracted, the change of the downwash angle and associated effect of the HS and elevator will cause a pitching up tendency, with the stick if not held in place, tending to move back a bit, thus causing that "ballooning" sensation...

 

You can easily track these effects on the elevator by enabling "Control Visualization" with R-CTRL ENTER

Really good information. Thanks!

Spitfire has given me the most realistic experience of flying and landing a prop plane. The level of simulation is sufficient to make it exciting just to fly around even with no air to air action whatsoever. landing it is very rewarding.

I understand Spit has split flap which generate little or no lift but rather priding drag?

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Don't understand that. How can ballooning occur if wing area and lift are reduced?

jcomm mentioned a pitch up moment upon flap retraction on the Spitfire, but pitch up and ballooning are totally different things.

In that case, we need to agree on definitions. Until then, we are all talking past one another.

That's incorrect as e.g. with the throttle closed e.g. the Spitfire VA stalls at 90mph with the flaps up and at much lower 80mph with the flaps down.

Spilt flaps don’t produce much lift. My question is does Spit has spilt flap?

By the way airplane can stall at any speed

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If you are a real pilot there shouldn't be any doubt about what is what.

 

Ballooning means that the plane starts climbing while maintaining a constant attitude.

 

 

 

@sdflyer I don't know why some people believe that split don't produce much lift.

 

They provide more lift than plain flaps. Depending on the design (and/or study) even more lift than slotted flaps.

 

It’s not matter of believe not many airplanes using split flaps, there gotta be reason in that.

I read some book in the past that analyzed aerodynamic design of flaps. There was a write up about split flaps but don’t remember exactly. Hence my question..

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By the way FAA pilot hand book defines "ballooning" during round out (chapter 8 ) as follows

"If the pilot misjudges the rate of sink during a landing and thinks the airplane is descending faster than it should, there is a tendency to increase the pitch attitude and AOA too rapidly.

If the pilot misjudges the rate of sink during a landing and thinks the airplane is descending faster than it should, there is a tendency to increase the pitch attitude and AOA too rapidly"

Increase pitch attitude and AOA too rapidly doesn't not constitute a "constant attitude". So I think it's a fair point to understand the meaning of phraseology in certain context.

By the way FAA pilot hand book defines "ballooning" during round out (chapter 8 ) as follows

 

"If the pilot misjudges the rate of sink during a landing and thinks the airplane is descending faster than it should, there is a tendency to increase the pitch attitude and AOA too rapidly.

If the pilot misjudges the rate of sink during a landing and thinks the airplane is descending faster than it should, there is a tendency to increase the pitch attitude and AOA too rapidly"

 

 

Increase pitch attitude and AOA too rapidly doesn't not constitute a "constant attitude". So I think it's a fair point to understand the meaning of phraseology in certain context.

And, the same sudden increase in the pitch attitude and AOA will occur as I have described when the flaps are raised too quickly. I had done this as a student pilot, 50 years ago.

Now, back to the Spitfire. I hope.