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What rule?

 

Edit: I did a quick search and found this: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3591205&postcount=2

Is that what you're talking about?


Edited by QuiGon

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No one would shoot themselves in the leg for no reason, it's definitely nothing ED has control over. Russian legislation, but which one ? All "important" bug reports that need documention for any aircrafts that has a manual available written after 1980, will have to be made to an ED team member via PM, most of the team is Russian and/or will have other things to do, that leaves the moderators, which will have to go through the reports, do the usual but using PM, that no one else can feed except the one who reported, this is a disaster not only for people who take time to make documented reports but also for the hardcore community looking for documentation, in fact for everyone, ED, the moderators, you, me... And for the simulation, people with documents might not bother reporting bugs and since they can't share them.

 

Moving the forum to another country could work (.ch since ED SA is based there now), maybe a jurist could help us figure out where this all came from :).


Edited by Rex854Warrior

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If it's anything like industries in which I've worked, I think there's a fairly straight-forward answer.

 

 

ED has relationships with multiple aircraft manufacturers. This can be seen in the company logos on various modules' splash screens, and the cooperation that is in place to allow the Hornet module to use the in-plane voices provided from the manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the data used to produce flight models was provided from the manufacturers too.

 

 

In order to maintain (and grow) these relationships, it doesn't help to upset these partners. It's doesn't help that the release of a document is technically legal, or whether a link to a document legally/illegally released elsewhere is legal. If the manufacturer likes what you do and how you do it, you'll get far more cooperation.

 

 

In the longer term, I think "playing ball" in this issue will serve us better. I think it's a pragmatic decision to disallow recent documents from the forums, but to allow the sharing of them with ED on a non-public basis.

 

 

As somebody with no relationship to ED other than enjoying flying in DCS, I will be more than happy to accept a ban on publication of documents if it helps to eventually bring other manufacturers (especially Russian ones) in from the cold.

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If it's anything like industries in which I've worked, I think there's a fairly straight-forward answer.

 

 

ED has relationships with multiple aircraft manufacturers. This can be seen in the company logos on various modules' splash screens, and the cooperation that is in place to allow the Hornet module to use the in-plane voices provided from the manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the data used to produce flight models was provided from the manufacturers too.

 

 

In order to maintain (and grow) these relationships, it doesn't help to upset these partners. It's doesn't help that the release of a document is technically legal, or whether a link to a document legally/illegally released elsewhere is legal. If the manufacturer likes what you do and how you do it, you'll get far more cooperation.

 

 

In the longer term, I think "playing ball" in this issue will serve us better. I think it's a pragmatic decision to disallow recent documents from the forums, but to allow the sharing of them with ED on a non-public basis.

 

 

As somebody with no relationship to ED other than enjoying flying in DCS, I will be more than happy to accept a ban on publication of documents if it helps to eventually bring other manufacturers (especially Russian ones) in from the cold.

 

While I see why this would be a good thing, what is blocking the making of russian aircraft isn't the maneufacturers, it's the Russian governement, which has no interest in making documentation available for anyone under any circumstances.

 

And you happely fly DCS because of alot of people, who devote alot of time to making solid bug reports, testing things,... If recent documentation is needed, the process will be even slower then it is now and you might have to spam to actually get anything done. While popularity on a bug report shouldn't matter, it definetely does on the ED forums. I remember having to PM bug reports before to get them fixed because nobody was looking at them, you might say that now you'll always PM those kind of bug reports, and you will, and so will everyone else, you've now got a moderator that has alot of bug reports to go throught, some are not bugs, very few are massive bugs, some will be people missunderstanding the manual,... other forum members usually point out if something is wrong in a bug report, but with these ones it won't be possible and the moderator will have to painfully do all this work. To be clear, moderators will also suffer from this rule, more work, boring work. Since the bug reports that require documentation are usually pretty important (hence the documentation, takes time to find it), big functionnalities that are incorrect in the sim, the ones that in my opinion make the difference between a good simulation and a near perfect simulation.

 

The only difference I think this will make is that the aircrafts simulated will have more of these issues, that might never get fixed, you could have no idea it's an issue because nobody has the manuals or doesn't have the will to report the bug seeing how tidious the process is.

Also the documentation that is used to make a module in DCS, is most likely not available to the public and is given under very specific terms to a developper, this rule doesn't change anything in that regards.


Edited by Rex854Warrior

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A few months ago there was a story about a classified Swedish weapon document was shared online by someone affiliated with flight sims. Supposedly when notified by the Swedes they completely halted activity.

I wonder if this was posted before I was looking for the Su-27SK manual...

 

Here’s one place with the story

https://sputniknews.com/military/201804021063131722-sweden-defense-data-leak/

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A few months ago there was a story about a classified Swedish weapon document was shared online by someone affiliated with flight sims. Supposedly when notified by the Swedes they completely halted activity.

I wonder if this was posted before I was looking for the Su-27SK manual...

 

Here’s one place with the story

https://sputniknews.com/military/201804021063131722-sweden-defense-data-leak/

 

That was on this forum, the swedish authorities would have managed to make pressure on ED or some Russian administration ? I can certainly understand that ED doesn't want troubles.

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Ya, that's all we need is some government getting pissed off and making one of these aerospace company that ED works with clam up and shut their doors to them. :banned: ugh!:doh:

It has always surprised me how much "unclassified" documentation is floating around out there on the interwebs

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  • 1 month later...

should be modified allow the mods to have discretion to more specifics with regards to permuting what is posted or not in post 1980 period.

 

This means you cant even post declassified FM to quite a large list of obselete aircraft, for discussion or even a Bug report ( at least not for general community to see) Even regarding something like an F5E, because even such manuals of such a 70s aircraft been revised post 1980.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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While I see why this would be a good thing, what is blocking the making of russian aircraft isn't the maneufacturers, it's the Russian governement, which has no interest in making documentation available for anyone under any circumstances.

 

And you happely fly DCS because of alot of people, who devote alot of time to making solid bug reports, testing things,... If recent documentation is needed, the process will be even slower then it is now and you might have to spam to actually get anything done. While popularity on a bug report shouldn't matter, it definetely does on the ED forums. I remember having to PM bug reports before to get them fixed because nobody was looking at them, you might say that now you'll always PM those kind of bug reports, and you will, and so will everyone else, you've now got a moderator that has alot of bug reports to go throught, some are not bugs, very few are massive bugs, some will be people missunderstanding the manual,... other forum members usually point out if something is wrong in a bug report, but with these ones it won't be possible and the moderator will have to painfully do all this work. To be clear, moderators will also suffer from this rule, more work, boring work. Since the bug reports that require documentation are usually pretty important (hence the documentation, takes time to find it), big functionnalities that are incorrect in the sim, the ones that in my opinion make the difference between a good simulation and a near perfect simulation.

 

The only difference I think this will make is that the aircrafts simulated will have more of these issues, that might never get fixed, you could have no idea it's an issue because nobody has the manuals or doesn't have the will to report the bug seeing how tidious the process is.

Also the documentation that is used to make a module in DCS, is most likely not available to the public and is given under very specific terms to a developper, this rule doesn't change anything in that regards.

 

exactly this.

 

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That was on this forum,

 

 

 

how do you know for sure ? I know the article would imply it, As Im not aware of any other Russian based company apart from Eagle Dynamics that makes flight sims ( at least none that would discuss on forums rb15 missile system) , but they never do directly mention it was eagle dynamics.

 

did you actually see the Post here on these forums?

 

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  • ED Team
should be modified allow the mods to have discretion to more specifics with regards to permuting what is posted or not in post 1980 period.

 

This means you cant even post declassified FM to quite a large list of obselete aircraft, for discussion or even a Bug report ( at least not for general community to see) Even regarding something like an F5E, because even such manuals of such a 70s aircraft been revised post 1980.

 

We don't have the time or the resources to validate every document someone says is ok to post. If you have something that is important to DCS and you really think it needs to be seen, PM a moderator or team member.

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Nobody is going to risk government ire so us videogame neckbeards can have glitches fixed more quickly. This is a video game, it doesn't have to be perfect, and it's certainly not worth fines or jailtime because community members can't be trusted not to post something they shouldn't.

 

A lot of the big sims are made in Russia, including Il-2 and War Thunder, btw.

 

Whether it was here or not is a moot point aside from the trivia aspect. It's a dangerous precedent. As I've mentioned before, people forget while playing this game, that it's accurately modeling (ish) real weapons and warplanes. Data is sometimes shared by government entities and permissions given on a trust basis. Stepping on toes in the national defense sectors is a short trip to a long stay, and if you piss off or compromise one organisation it will negatively affect all of them as you'll be proven 'untrustworthy'.

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We don't have the time or the resources to validate every document someone says is ok to post. If you have something that is important to DCS and you really think it needs to be seen, PM a moderator or team member.

 

Someone? You mean like the DOD?

 

 

http://www.wingovernmentcontracts.com/distribution-codes.htm

 

 

Any us document that is classified as distribution level A means its fully declassified and fully accepted for public dissemination.

 

And the distribution statement level is one of the first things that are visible within the first few pages

 

Take this excerpt for eg.

 

Cone8fM.jpg

 

 

 

 

There are no legal issues with such documentation being shared or posted even if post 1980 date


Edited by Kev2go

 

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Nobody is going to risk government ire so us videogame neckbeards can have glitches fixed more quickly. This is a video game, it doesn't have to be perfect, and it's certainly not worth fines or jailtime because community members can't be trusted not to post something they shouldn't.

 

A lot of the big sims are made in Russia, including Il-2 and War Thunder, btw.

 

 

Whether it was here or not is a moot point aside from the trivia aspect. It's a dangerous precedent. As I've mentioned before, people forget while playing this game, that it's accurately modeling (ish) real weapons and warplanes. Data is sometimes shared by government entities and permissions given on a trust basis. Stepping on toes in the national defense sectors is a short trip to a long stay, and if you piss off or compromise one organisation it will negatively affect all of them as you'll be proven 'untrustworthy'.

 

 

 

Maybe if you actually researched and properly analyzed this, you wouldnt be so quick to accept the speil, and become an apologist . This is not case at all as I have shown above.

 

It's quite a black and white generalization to ban anything pat 1980 just cuse.

 

Other flight sim developers (which I wont name because " Advertising competing flight sim product" ) don't have such rules and in fact some of them are courteous to share downloadable pdfs of actual documentation such as FM for the real thing.

 

 

Not looking at flight sims genre steel beasts developers and from ones contributed from community also have a database compilation of various declassified documentation for downloads, including even Doctrinal guide ( such as the Marines Maneuver warfare circa 2003)

 

So as such other communities go went a step further by having such resources available for anyone

 

There could easily be instances of pre 1980 manaul that is shared that is not something that should be posted. But by the logic of the new rule torololol lets post because it's not against forum rule... amirite. (Sarcasm)


Edited by Kev2go

 

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Someone? You mean like the DOD?

 

 

http://www.wingovernmentcontracts.com/distribution-codes.htm

 

 

Any us document that is classified as distribution level A means its fully declassified and fully accepted for public dissemination.

 

And the distribution statement level is one of the first things that are visible within the first few pages

 

Take this excerpt for eg.

 

Cone8fM.jpg

 

 

 

 

There are no legal issues with such documentation being shared or posted even if post 1980 date

 

So you can PM mod and say that this eg doc should be here and your reason will be justified..

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