Flight Model Again V2

Any general comments on specific behaviors that are modeled badly?

 

First problem: the DCS Gazelle is never stopping rolling when you move your cyclic and maintain a steady position, for example 3cm left from neutral position). In the real Gazelle (and in most part of French helicopters) a displacement of the cyclic of x cm is corresponding to a steady x degrees roll angle of the helicopter.

 

This first big issue explains why real helicopter pilots like my friends and I are unable to take pleasure with the DCS Gazelle. We only fly the Mi8, UH1 and KA that are both great with their FM except the Vortex which is so much overrated...

 

There is also the weird rolling behavior when you move the collective lever in the DCS Gazelle....

And so on...

First problem: the DCS Gazelle is never stopping rolling when you move your cyclic and maintain a steady position, for example 3cm left from neutral position). In the real Gazelle (and in most part of French helicopters) a displacement of the cyclic of x cm is corresponding to a steady x degrees roll angle of the helicopter.

 

This first big issue explains why real helicopter pilots like my friends and I are unable to take pleasure with the DCS Gazelle. We only fly the Mi8, UH1 and KA that are both great with their FM except the Vortex which is so much overrated...

 

There is also the weird rolling behavior when you move the collective lever in the DCS Gazelle....

And so on...

 

 

Thank you for finally putting this discussion to rest.

 

 

For me I notice it most when I bank the helicopter and the lift vector seems not to move unless I pull on the stick. It's kind of weird to explain but anyway, we agree there is something wrong.

 

 

On the VRS: I lately had the feeling of altitude is wrong in the game... Not sure why but whenever I used to fly in the mountains I remember going 'wow that's high' where in the sim I'm thinking they're small hills to fly over until you look at the altimeter or map and see it's 2000m high.

 

Due to that I think the RoD might be higher then what we think is happening.

I'll hop into the huey this weekend and see if I can find the spot of VRS onset.

 

 

Regarding to vrs in the real gazelle. Do you have ample power left to overcome it with collective or you have to move out?

 

 

Thanks!

I haven't flown the Gazelle for a long time, but I can still: take off, travel to a destination and land on a flat roof, with the gyro and AP off.

 

 

All without using the cyclic.

 

 

This involves hard use of the pedals and collective. This simply can't be done with the helicopter remaining upright and stable in RL.

 

 

 

..

Edited January 27, 2019 by Holbeach

First problem: the DCS Gazelle is never stopping rolling when you move your cyclic and maintain a steady position, for example 3cm left from neutral position). In the real Gazelle (and in most part of French helicopters) a displacement of the cyclic of x cm is corresponding to a steady x degrees roll angle of the helicopter.

 

This first big issue explains why real helicopter pilots like my friends and I are unable to take pleasure with the DCS Gazelle. We only fly the Mi8, UH1 and KA that are both great with their FM except the Vortex which is so much overrated...

 

There is also the weird rolling behavior when you move the collective lever in the DCS Gazelle....

And so on...

 

+1, my main concern too

"There is also the weird rolling behavior when you move the collective lever in the DCS Gazelle"....

 

 

When this behaviour was first introduced, you could drop the collective to roll the Gazelle inverted and remain there. At least that's gone now.

In fact inverted flight is now not possible due to the rotor breaking apart, (I'm glad to say).

Turning on and off AP damping etc in flight has little to no effect. But the thing remains twitchy and UFO no matter how you fly... AP on or Off or whatever. I thought long time ago that maybe my G940 stick with ffb had something to do with it too... but now I use a spare T.Flight HOTAS and is just the same.... terrible.

First problem: the DCS Gazelle is never stopping rolling when you move your cyclic and maintain a steady position, for example 3cm left from neutral position). In the real Gazelle (and in most part of French helicopters) a displacement of the cyclic of x cm is corresponding to a steady x degrees roll angle of the helicopter.

 

Okay does this imply a 1 deg of roll with a 1 cm of cyclic roll movement. Would 30 deg of roll imply 30 cm of cyclic roll travel?

 

There is also the weird rolling behavior when you move the collective lever in the DCS Gazelle....

And so on...

 

*Wagtendonk Ch 12 blow-back (blow-forward) when using the collective in unaccelerated flight describes this effect.

 

Also speaking of blow-back (et al) the feedback into the attitude and thus cyclic input of the Gazelle is not there compared to say a Huey accelerating in forward flight where the nose wants to lift up, should we get more blow-back/transverse-flow effect interacting on attitude as we accelerate?

 

Just curious it seems the control inputs are there but not the attitude/CoG influences acting on the aircraft, any input appreciated thanks.

 

 

*Wagtendonk Principles of Helicopter Flight sceond edition. :)

Just a question, are we discussing rotor dynamics here or the Gazelle? I often read what people write, but 80% is not constructiv or a pure assumption lacking the details of rotor dynamics. Yes I have spoken to Damcopter. In addition I have talked to other pilots, even one specialist of Bell Textron, and we are gathering informations. We will discuss certain aspects, but first of all, finish the development of the flightmodel of another helicopter, cause we integrate new technologies and new developed programs, outside of DCS, that will make the difference in the end. fact is, there will be an update at some time in 2019 to the gazelle, but there are things to discuss, also some information given by pilots, cause 80% of the pilots say, that keeping the roll input constant will get you into a deathly situation within seconds. considering, that a specific helicopter rolls 32 degrees/sec at a 1,5" input to the left (4.4" is the max from center) tells me and anyone, that you are in a deadly roll degree after 3.5sec. Also we have to figure what systems are active to cause certain interpretations. fact is, gyroscopic persession keeps your roll steady at 30 degrees, for example, not a constant cyclic input.

 

And if people think RC helicopters are not like a helicopter, well, they are and ate bound to the exact samelaws of physics. I also had to learn a lot about static stability and dynamic stability, just saying. So I hope we can maybe get back to something constructive, or do should this be closed as a topic and we open a new one about rotordynamics, causethat is what would be more constructive for the community. We do understand and know the factors of rotor dynamics, but does everybody else? If anyone would like to discuss this further and more direct, join our discord and we can have a direct communication about it.

Just a question, are we discussing rotor dynamics here or the Gazelle? I often read what people write, but 80% is not constructiv or a pure assumption lacking the details of rotor dynamics.

 

Ok I get you're proud of your product and want to defend it at all costs. But please just accept the fact your module has great potentional but it's simply not delivering on the FM part of it.

 

Rotor dynamics and the discussion about the gazelle are one and the same thing. How can you discuss the FM without going into rotor dynamics here?

 

 

Yes I have spoken to Damcopter. In addition I have talked to other pilots, even one specialist of Bell Textron, and we are gathering informations.

What have these discussions brought forward to improve it? What are the area's that are really lacking according to you that need to be improved? I'm asking this because I want to understand on what you think is right and what not. And what we can expect to change...

 

We will discuss certain aspects, but first of all, finish the development of the flightmodel of another helicopter, cause we integrate new technologies and new developed programs, outside of DCS, that will make the difference in the end.

Do you really think I'm going to buy a module from again you based on past experience?

 

 

 

fact is, there will be an update at some time in 2019 to the gazelle, but there are things to discuss, also some information given by pilots, cause 80% of the pilots say, that keeping the roll input constant will get you into a deathly situation within seconds. considering, that a specific helicopter rolls 32 degrees/sec at a 1,5" input to the left (4.4" is the max from center) tells me and anyone, that you are in a deadly roll degree after 3.5sec. Also we have to figure what systems are active to cause certain interpretations. fact is, gyroscopic persession keeps your roll steady at 30 degrees, for example, not a constant cyclic input.

Not sure what the above means. Could you please elaborate?

 

 

 

And if people think RC helicopters are not like a helicopter, well, they are and ate bound to the exact samelaws of physics. I also had to learn a lot about static stability and dynamic stability, just saying.

Well the strain on RC helicopters is far less isn't it? The inertia in those things is tiny compared to the bigger counterparts. That's saying a RC car responds the same as a GT3 car.

 

 

The current FM acts as if there is no momentum/inertia. Also the lift vector seems to behave very strange.

 

 

 

So I hope we can maybe get back to something constructive, or do should this be closed as a topic and we open a new one about rotordynamics, causethat is what would be more constructive for the community. We do understand and know the factors of rotor dynamics, but does everybody else? If anyone would like to discuss this further and more direct, join our discord and we can have a direct communication about it.

Here again you are very patronizing... And I'm not a fan. I taught rotor dynamics in ground school so maybe yes I do understand it. You talk about being constructive but the only thing you do is saying we don't.

 

 

 

But hey keep saying the FM is correct and have a module that can do 500 loops without losing altitude and see your costumerbase dry up real fast.

Edited January 28, 2019 by YorZor

let me ask you, have you flown it lately?

Ok I get you're proud of your product and want to defend it at all costs. But please just accept the fact your module has great potentional but it's simply not delivering on the FM part of it.

 

Rotor dynamics and the discussion about the gazelle are one and the same thing. How can you discuss the FM without going into rotor dynamics here?

 

 

What have these discussions brought forward to improve it? What are the area's that are really lacking according to you that need to be improved? I'm asking this because I want to understand on what you think is right and what not. And what we can expect to change...

 

Do you really think I'm going to buy a module from again you based on past experience?

 

 

 

Not sure what the above means. Could you please elaborate?

 

 

Well the strain on RC helicopters is far less isn't it? The inertia in those things is tiny compared to the bigger counterparts. That's saying a RC car responds the same as a GT3 car.

 

 

The current FM acts as if there is no momentum/inertia. Also the lift vector seems to behave very strange.

 

 

 

Here again you are very patronizing... And I'm not a fan. I taught rotor dynamics in ground school so maybe yes I do understand it. You talk about being constructive but the only thing you do is saying we don't.

 

 

 

But hey keep saying the FM is correct and have a module that can do 500 loops without losing altitude and see your costumerbase dry up real fast.

 

Or you simply cant fly it? ;)

let me ask you, have you flown it lately?

 

That's a very valid point, improvements have bought the FM a long way and it is nothing like it was over 2 years ago.

 

Thanks also for the heads up on development looking forward to taking the new helicopter for a spin. :D

 

Cheers borchi_2b. :thumbup:

I've asked this question several times before, but I never get an answer, so here's another go (simplified).

 

 

Why can I fly this machine without using the cyclic?

..

Edited January 29, 2019 by Holbeach

Why can I fly this machine without using the cyclic?

..

 

And why turning off AP and all aids in flight have little to no effect to flight dynamics

 

let me ask you, have you flown it lately?

 

Yes!

 

And if people think RC helicopters are not like a helicopter, well, they are[ ...]

 

This might explain the fact that you can throw the Gazelle in DCS around like it has just one Kilogram instead of almost 2 tons... its FM is based on a RC helicopter...

no it is not. sorry to disappoint you.

 

A wise man once said, the impossible task is, to pursuade a man of an opinion that is not his own.

no it is not. sorry to disappoint you.

 

A wise man once said, the impossible task is, to pursuade a man of an opinion that is not his own.

 

Is it possible where you live to do an introductory flight at a flying school? Serious question.

 

The Gazelle has many of the control inputs that I expect and I also consider correct in that it "feels" like an Mi8 or a Huey or an R44.

 

Why can I fly this machine without using the cyclic?

..

 

Because well it can be done. :D touch the cyclic and all bets are off till you re balance it.

 

 

And why turning off AP and all aids in flight have little to no effect to flight dynamics.

 

I would disagree in that it does make a noticeable difference, at least IMHO. :)

 

Regarding to vrs in the real gazelle. Do you have ample power left to overcome it with collective or you have to move out?Thanks!

 

Considering your already in VRS applying more power is not the answer, plan b step out of it sideways if you can. ;)

 

 

Turning on and off AP damping etc in flight has little to no effect. But the thing remains twitchy and UFO no matter how you fly... AP on or Off or whatever. I thought long time ago that maybe my G940 stick with ffb had something to do with it too... but now I use a spare T.Flight HOTAS and is just the same.... terrible.

 

Observation, a table mounted joy stick is the worst thing I have tried to simulate a cyclic, all be it in a sim.

 

Joy stick didn't work for me

 

For my setup the Gazelle is not twitchy at all in fact it's very smooth.

 

This might explain the fact that you can throw the Gazelle in DCS around like it has just one Kilogram instead of almost 2 tons... its FM is based on a RC helicopter...

 

Maybe, power required to maintain an arc of travel is different given the mass of the aircraft, the inertia seems right especially when you loose control. Doh! :lol:

 

Just some musings. :thumbup:

let me ask you, have you flown it lately?

 

I did check it last night after I read your post. Nothing has changed afaik?

Just do a simple bank turn and change the position of the collective. The turn radius does not change. If the collective controls the pitch of the blades this is simply impossible.

Or you simply cant fly it? ;)

What was your profession again? Remind me.

 

 

Considering your already in VRS applying more power is not the answer, plan b step out of it sideways if you can.

 

 

Nothing in physics say it's impossible. I know the skycrane can do it but I do not know any other helicopter able to do it so that is why I'm asking.

Edited January 29, 2019 by YorZor

Like this,..

 

See mar no cyclic,.. :P :music_whistling:

Because well it can be done. touch the cyclic and all bets are off till you re balance it.

That's true, but so should a boot full of pedal and it doesn't. (Gyro/AP off of course). Violent inputs don't upset the balance and they should.

 

 

 

Lower collective and drop vertically from a stable hover at 5000' and land at zero speed, without using the stick.

 

 

Then jump in your R22 and do the same and see what happens. Throw the stick out the window first, to make sure you don't cheat. :helpsmilie:

..

I did check it last night after I read your post. Nothing has changed afaik?

Just do a simple bank turn and change the position of the collective. The turn radius does not change. If the collective controls the pitch of the blades this is simply impossible.

 

What was your profession again? Remind me.

 

 

Nothing in physics say it's impossible. I know the skycrane can do it but I do not know any other helicopter able to do it so that is why I'm asking.

 

Bull$hit no helicopter can do it, VRS means the downward thrust no longer supports the aircraft, gravity has won.

 

YMMV. :thumbup:

Edited January 29, 2019 by FragBum
<typo>

no it is not. sorry to disappoint you.

 

A wise man once said, the impossible task is, to pursuade a man of an opinion that is not his own.

 

 

 

I don't have an agenda if this is what you imply. I agree with that saying though...

 

 

Here is a quick throw, AP all On and curves to 30. If you drop AP etc and set curves to 0 and train a bit you can do amazing things. Also the helicopter will surprise you doing all sorts of crazy maneuvers on its own.

 

I had to "quickly land" as my 2 year old was getting annoyed by lack of attention... :pilotfly:

 

 

later edit:

Things to follow (not planned at the moment of flight):

 

1. Controls set up with curves at 30

2. Take off straight up with max collective no rudder... no worries

3. Fast hard yanking left right... no issues...

4. Roll and complete rolls in series with ease... recovery easy from external camera

5. hard touchdown with tailboom loss... no problem skidding straight :)

 

My main problem is that I don't want to use certain stick with certain settings to confine myself within a realistic FM. I want the helicopter not to be able to do crazy stuff on its own.

Edited January 29, 2019 by zaelu

as borchi said, anything related with this thread, go to their discord, they have a channel just for flying dynamics

here is a quick throw, AP all On and curves to 30. If you drop AP etc and set curves to 0 and train a bit you can do amazing things. Also the helicopter will surprise you doing all sorts of crazy maneuvers on its own.

 

I had to "quickly land" as my 2 year old was getting annoyed by lack of attention... :pilotfly:

 

 

Wait until you can fly it.:thumbup:

What was your profession again? Remind me.

 

 

Im a professional driver is my profession tight gaps and thousands of miles in reverse.

Wait until you can fly it.:thumbup:

 

 

I think you missed my point. I don't complain I can't fly it. I say is just neverosimil the way it can fly. If you fly it by the book it means you don't know what she can do in the game. And that is the problem.